Becky Priebe
Designing at the Edges of Technology
In this episode of Brave UX, Becky Priebe shares what it’s like to design at the edges of technology, the role of systems thinking in design, and design’s relationship with engineering.
Highlights include:
- What drew you to practice design at the edges of technology?
- Are we getting better or worse at shaping technology for humans?
- What does giving equal value to design and engineering look like?
- Why is it important to take a systems perspective when designing?
- What does it mean to ‘make space’ and how have you applied that?
Who is Becky Priebe?
Becky is the VP of Innovation Design & GTM Lab 13 at MRM, a leading global marketing agency, with offices in 30 countries.
For the past 15 years, Becky has worked at the messy, exciting and emerging end of design technology, creating positive experiences for people.
Amongst other things, Becky’s designed an entertainment system for a McClaren super car, interactive TV for Deutsche Telekom, pre-iPad era tablets for NVIDIA, and an industrial-grade AR headset for RealWear.
Becky was the co-founder of Innovative Converged Devices, where some of the technology used in SNAP AR and Microsoft HoloLens was conceptualised.
Transcript
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Hello and welcome to another episode of Brave UX. I'm Brendan Jarvis, Managing Founder of The Space InBetween, the home of New Zealand's only specialist evaluative UX research practice and world-class UX lab, enabling brave teams across the globe to de-risk product design and equally brave leaders to shape and scale design culture. Here on Brave UX though, it's my job to help you to put the pieces of the product puzzle together. I do that by unpacking the stories, learnings, and expert advice of world-class UX, design and product management professionals. My guest today is Becky Priebe. Becky is the VP of Innovation Design and GTM Lab 13 at MRM, a leading global marketing agency with offices in 30 countries and strengths and strategy, data science, technology, and creativity. For the past 15 years, Becky has worked at the messy, exciting, and emerging end of design technology, creating positive experiences for people. Amongst other things,
- Becky's designed an entertainment system for a McLaren Supercar, interactive TV for Deutsche Telecom, pre iPad-era tablets for Nvidia and an industrial grade AR headset for Realware. Prior to joining MRM, while she was a Partner and Head of Design at Aventurine Capital Group, Becky also designed an IP commercialization program that helped the firm to identify opportunities early and increase how quickly it could bring them to market. Becky was also the Co-Founder of Innovative Converged Devices, where some of the technology used in Snap AR and Microsoft's HoloLens was conceptualized. She is a named inventor on a technology patent, a watercolor artist, and a designer who refuses to be shoehorned into any one way of practicing her craft. And now, coming to me live from her apartment in Brooklyn, New York, USA. Becky, welcome to the show.
- Becky Priebe:
- Thank you Brendan. I'm really excited to be here. I think this is going to be an excellent conversation, so I'm looking forward to it.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- I have been as well. This is such a great way to finish my week. As I mentioned before we hit record, I'm actually calling you from the future, so it is Friday the 6th of May for you for me, and I think it's Thursday the 5th of May for you. Yeah. So isn't time, aren't time zones wonderful. They are. Hey, so I initially thought you might be calling me from your 30 acre hobby farm in New England.
- Becky Priebe:
- Oh yes.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Yeah. And it's curious for me to learn that you have an apartment in Brooklyn as well, cuz I was curious why, I suppose it's my projection here, but the serene kind of solitude of a 30 acre acre hobby farm in New England over the hustle and bustle of the Big Apple.
- Becky Priebe:
- Well, I have to say actually I don't think that one is too much better than the other. I think they suit different needs at different times. So sometimes when I'm in my hobby farm, I have a pretty significant commune with trees, [laugh], and I spend a lot of time in nature, which I feel is very replenishing to me and kind of helps me revitalize myself a bit. When I'm in New York, there's a lot of inspiration around regarding things that humans do and produce and participate in. So there's a lot of art and music and fantastic food. So I think they're both, it's the best of both worlds I guess. I've spent a lot of time in big cities over my lifetime traveling quite a bit and I've lived in a number of cities around the world. But yeah, I think they just each provide me different needs. I think that support ideation and creativity and just kind of thriving as a human, I would think. That's a good question.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Yeah. And you've got these two residences. How do you decide where to be? Like is this something that you, you're quite structured and scheduled, you're like, this week I'm going to be in the city and next week I'm going to be at my farm. Or is it more, I feel like now I need to escape New York and get some sort of time in nature so I can replenish myself?
- Becky Priebe:
- It's really interesting that you asked that because there are definitely times where I feel like I need to escape New York and replenish myself in nature. And I do go to Maine, which is where my farm is to do that. It's quite a drive. It's about five hour drive. But I also think that I've recently discovered, I've made a point of discovering places in New York that do that for me. So I've actually kind of found some very interesting kind of nature in the wild places in New York City that I don't think a lot of people think of when they think of New York. But I was actually just at one yesterday and I went there and with my dogs and kind of wandered around and I saw there was quite a bit of nature. There was a beautiful crane that I watched for some time, but I mean
- Brendan Jarvis:
- A bird as opposed to the things that build buildings. Yeah, because there's a few of those in New York too.
- Becky Priebe:
- Like a [laugh], like a bird crane, yeah
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Like a live one.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Oh yeah. I mean there's things that I get from both a lot of time. I'm a big explorer, kind of discoverer type. I like to try stuff and I've always been fascinated with sustainable living and tiny, tiny living. And so I kind of try to live that way on my farm in Maine. And I do a bit in New York City as well, try to live in a fairly minimal way. But I mean, I think some people first world problems would think, you know, have access to lots of things. So it's not really what's happening, but
- Brendan Jarvis:
- It's the relativity here. That's interesting for me because I was going to ask you about the tiny home. Yeah. Because there's this stereotype about America and having traveled there several times myself seen this firsthand. Coffee's A, the popcorns are bigger. Yes, the houses are bigger, everything is, the trucks are bigger, everything's bigger. So why not bigger? Why is tiny better than bigger in this case for you?
- Becky Priebe:
- I think it's just a conscious choice of all of us as humans need to think smaller in order to think bigger about the planet. I mean, we're facing some pretty significant things happening and I'm a big believer that everyone can make impact in small ways and small. A lot of humans doing small things add up to big things. So that's why I look at it. And also it forces you to think in a necessity mindset. So the famous quote, necessity is the mother of invention. It forces me to think in a necessity mindset and then to do things with materials or things that are available to me that I didn't buy or somehow were made for me. And to use them in a way to make them into what I need them to be. So I do that a lot in Maine. I look for objects in the forest that I can make things out of or try to find ways that I can leverage my water or my different things that are happening on my property to exist more kind of in harmony with the world. I guess
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Just segueing briefly into your art, we touched on that when we first started speaking how you were inspired by the forest. Let me know if I'm putting words in your mouth here, but I had a look at your art website and the pieces that you have on display there are very clearly inspired by the forest itself. What is it about, I mean, not necessarily nature itself, but in particular for you with the forest and the trees, cuz they come through quite strongly in your latest art. What is it about that space for you?
- Becky Priebe:
- Wow, that's a really good question. I don't even know if I can answer that in words. I think that I feel something like when I'm amongst a lot of trees, I feel something very good and sometimes I actually, [laugh], you're going to laugh at me. Sometimes I actually pet them [laugh]. When I'm on my property, I actually make a point of just rubbing my hand down the tree to just feel it. And I don't know what it is I, I've told a colleague that I worked with, worked with that. I think that I come up with great ideas when I'm in the midst of trees and could possibly be the fact that there's just a lot of oxygen. I mean, trees are actually emitting oxygen. So who knows, maybe that's stimulating some sort of chemical reaction or I think, I don't know, it just takes me to a good place. And the other thing that's interesting about it too is when I'm out in those areas, I, I imagine myself, explorers would feel so if you came to a new land that you didn't know before, I like to look at it in that way and then I feel like inspired because I'm seeing things as if, oh, I just discovered this. I'm the only person who's ever been here, or it makes me feel like that. So I think that's it. That's probably,
- Brendan Jarvis:
- There's a romantic notion there. The world has become so connected by technology. We have satellites, thousands of them around the globe at the moment. You can literally look into every nook and cranny from space. It sometimes does feel like there's nothing left to be discovered in our natural environment. So I kind of like how you are almost, I mean, you might actually be correct though someone, some other human may not have seen that particular tree that you are looking at and that forest. But I like the way that you are almost inventing a sense of discovery there. And I think that I can see the definite appeal of feeling replenished by, it's almost like getting in touch with your child. You're in a child again, and I don't wanna get, I'm not a psychologist so I can't delve too deep into this, but having a child myself now who's of an early age, you definitely, there's that cliche of you. You see the world through your child's eyes and you can definitely come to appreciate that there's still so much wonder and discovery for smaller humans and we kind of lose that as we get older and grow into our cities.
- Becky Priebe:
- I actually really love kids at, I mean have a child, my a daughter myself, but I love that about them, that they ask questions that are obvious but not obvious or they say things that you're like, what? And then you think, oh wow. Yeah. I mean that makes a lot of sense. Right? Yeah. I think really we do lose that a bit because we start to, our brains start to accept things for granted. I think actually David Dylan Thomas on here on your podcast said something about we make something 1 trillion decisions a day. And in order to do so, we have to develop ways to do it quickly by making, putting things into categories basically is what's happening. And in order to do that, what we're also doing though is accepting things as a certain, giving them a characteristic or set of characteristics. Characteristics, which then prevents us from looking at them in a new way. So that's interesting, but that must be what's happening with kids. Their neurons are formulating and connecting and so to
- Brendan Jarvis:
- You can literally almost hear it happening, don't you? Quite definitely
- Becky Priebe:
- Something see it. Yeah, yeah,
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Yeah. I was curious about your career as well, just following on the sort of thread of, I suppose connecting a few dots and neurons forming. You've got one of the more interesting, if not most interesting creative technology careers that I've seen, and I mentioned some of the things in your introduction that you've designed. There's definitely a strong theme there of emerging technology, and I was quite captivated by this. I was wondering what was it that drew you so strongly to the emerging edges of design?
- Becky Priebe:
- I think that I am just wired in a way that requires me to constantly be figuring things out. And I think that my brain just latches on to things that aren't, and then I have to, it becomes something that just drives me. And I think that's what has kind of driven my career of, oh, that's interesting. How does that work? How can it work for people? What's its impact? And then just forcing myself to figure it out. I had somebody tell me once that they think that I always needed something to worry about because apparently I'm a worrier, but I think those things go hand in hand. Oh, I don't remember the exact circumstances, but maybe because I was behaving in that way of, okay, now I'm addressing this problem and I was probably really focused on it. And that's what kind of happens to me. I get something in my head of I need to know how that works. So yeah, probably worry and curiosity are very [laugh] kind of tied together. I guess.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Listening to you talk about your work, and I've listened to some other talks and podcasts that you've been on as well. You are so humbly blase about it all, and I hope you realize that you've got an incredible portfolio of design work.
- Becky Priebe:
- I've had a lot of really good opportunities. I don't know, that's an interesting thing to say because I think maybe many designers are like this, but it feels like you're always striving to do the perfect work and it's completely unattainable. So it feels like sometimes that maybe the work that you did was amazing or the product that you worked on was amazing, but you're always thinking that could have been better. I could have done better there, but I thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. I have truly stumbled on a lot of really interesting things. I mean, some of them, just by happenstance of where I was at the time, something was happening societally or technologically and it just kind of unfolded that way. So a lot of it I think is just due to luck, [laugh],
- Brendan Jarvis:
- This notion of perfection and the constant pursuit of it is something that I know is almost a universal human experience at least for people across fields. I'm not saying that every human experiences this pull to perfection, but people across many different fields are haunted and motivated by this pursuit. What is it for you though, when it comes to the design work that you've done? When you think back on it or maybe even what you're trying to achieve in the sort of present moment at mrm, what is it that would make whatever it is you've done or are doing perfect? What is lacking? What is the thing that's missing?
- Becky Priebe:
- I think that's actually the kind of dichotomy of it because it's almost like when you were talking about being in with trees and being a discoverer and perhaps you are the only person that has ever been there. You are the only person that's ever been there at that moment of where the trees are at. So you're, the trees are there. Those two moments will never happen again. In design, it's a similar thing. You'll never achieve perfection because the circumstances will always change. The variables will always change. Even people that we look up to personally me, there's design people that I think are just amazing and I would probably label some of their work as perfect or products like Apple is one that is commonly referred to as just the bar of which to attain. But even there there's always some little trade off or something that's could be a little bit better. So
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Have you used the keyboard on the 2017 MacBook? Terrible. I'm glad they replaced it.
- Becky Priebe:
- Well, one of the things that drives me crazy is I think that Apple's Bluetooth stack is annoying. I literally feel like somebody don't, something has happened there, why is that one area just not getting as much attention as everything else? But yeah, I feel that way about their Bluetooth, but it's working well now, so yeah, it's all good.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Oh good. Oh good. I'm pleased. It seems to be incrementally better. Yeah. Where does that voice come from, that perfectionist tendency? If you think back about even maybe your time before you considered yourself a designer, and I don't know, maybe you've always considered yourself a designer, but is there an origin or a memory that comes to mind where that voice, you were first conscious of that voice being there,
- Becky Priebe:
- Of seeking perfection? You mean? I think it's always been there. I mean now that you mentioned it, I mean could literally talk, I literally look back on my childhood and acknowledge that I've been this forever and probably annoyed a lot of people because of it could be too, I mean, we talked a little bit about this, but I have never been officially diagnosed. But I think that in some ways I'm probably neurodiverse or divergent or whatever you wanna put that box in. And I think maybe some of it's that, I don't know, I think there's just the way we're wired, people are wired differently and the way I'm wired is to look for things that need to be fixed, even if it's in my own self or things, I produce it. It's interesting too. Designers I think have this tendency to produce something and then let's say they go to a present it or share it with somebody, almost every designer will point out the flaw in the thing that they produced. It's just a thing that we do. We're like, oh, the person could be, this is amazing. It's beautiful, I love it. And you're like, oh yeah, but there's this one thing right there that I didn't do. And then I think in the back of your mind, you're kind of kicking yourself thinking, why did I have to say that? What compelled me to do that? So yeah,
- Brendan Jarvis:
- For me, I've sometimes wondered whether it's, it's actually coming from a place of insecurity, a place of discomfort with praise. I've never really been comfortable when people have said good things about my work because I'm like you in this respect that I always know where the hole is. And I do it with the podcast as well. I listen to each episode when I'm reviewing the edit and I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have started that way. That was a bit awkward. Or there's just this sort of nagging voice in my head that doesn't want to accept that it's actually pretty good.
- Becky Priebe:
- I wonder, I think actors must feel that way as well. I think that some of, some actors just can't watch themselves because it's too hard to sit there and self-critique like, oh, that causes too much stress. And you're right, it probably is insecurity. And I think that, I was talking to somebody about this the other day. I think that creative people have a tendency toward insecurity. I think that I'm sure other people do as well, but it seems like in the creative world, we tend to feel that way quite a bit. It kind of drives, you're probably right, it probably does drive a lot of seeking of perfection, I would imagine.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Or are we just smart enough to realize that we've got some rough edges to round out, hard to tell sometimes. But I was curious, if you think about your self in a social situation, I don't know if you want to go back as far as high school or even at college. If you went to college which I believe you did, would you say that you were someone who fit in with the group that was comfortable at the center of the room or not? Or are you someone who is more comfortable around the edges, is more comfortable having that one-on-one conversation with someone else that might be hanging out around the edges? How do you think about your own fitting into, I suppose, society and the social groups that you're part of?
- Becky Priebe:
- That is a very, very interesting question because I've actually analyzed myself from that view of that question. And I don't think that I fit into either. I don't think that I am always okay, I need to stay on the outside or I'm always, I need to be in the middle of what's going on. I feel like I kind of go back and forth, and I have definitely had trouble in my life in many instances fitting in or to refer back to things Benny was saying, understanding the rules of this group or of what's, how things work then, but also being super self-conscious and insecure about not fitting in. So that generating anxiety in myself of kind of wanting to, but this is so interesting because this is also probably goes back to the main hobby farm remote [laugh] around nobody to New York City. It's, they're two different things. Although my apartment in New York City is quite insulated from the city. When I leave my apartment, it's sometimes a bit of a shock because of like, whoa, I'm in here. But yeah, that's really interesting. But I don't honestly think I fit into one category or personality type, I guess you would call it.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- And I suppose what motivated me to ask you that question was our offline conversation about this was your commentary on listening to that episode with Benny. I was also reflecting where this all started actually on Brave View X was a conversation with Odell, who is Neurodiverse as well. And Trip actually introduced me to Benny, which is how Benny became on the podcast. And Tripp has this, and it's not a notion specific to Tripp, but this sort of T-shaped comb notion when he is building his teams and this feeling, I suppose that people who are neurodiverse or divergent have often where they're not sure if they fit in certain circumstances or they're not quite getting certain cues. But we were also speaking about you and I about this tension between categorizing things and thinking about things in spectrums and what you've described about your own behavior and how you feel sometimes you are happy being that center of attention, and other times you're more comfortable on the outside and not really sure if you fit into either. It just sort of seems to me like it's a situational thing. This is sort of more reflective of, I suppose, the human experience than these labels that we like to assign to ourselves, which I think Lou Rosenfeld kind of describes them as prisons. We built these little moment prisons, prisms, he was talking about prisons, sorry, not prisms, different things. He was talking about probably both the labels that we used to have a design, right? Yeah, probably right [laugh] getting hung up on, am I an interaction designer or am I a UX
- Becky Priebe:
- Designer? Oh my gosh. One of the things that drives me crazy about design is those categories of determining what you are, sorry, I interrupted you. Please finish.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- What? No, not at all. But this, that's a hundred percent what it is. We seem to be drawn to tightly define ourselves. And I suppose the question is how well does that service as people, and also how well does it serve us as a profession, as a field, as a discipline?
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, that's really interesting. I actually had people tell me that I was neurodivergent and I never thought of myself as that. And when they said it, then I researched it and then I started listening to podcasts or interviews or things by psychologists or your podcast with Benny, or just listening to them and hearing them describe their experience and how they feel about the world and what their perception is of the world and how they fit in. And I was like, this is really coming into focus for me, right? And I was seeing that, yes, that sounds like me. That sounds like how I behave. But then I thought about this too. And I think about it, I know that evolutionary wise, we were designed to make categorical decisions. And I think David Dillon Thomas talked about this too, but it's also in like Noah, you all Hararis book sapiens, and it talks about how when you're trucking across the Savannah and you hear a noise and you look, have to make a quick decision, is that a lion or is it a bird?
- And you have to do something as a result. So our brains were naturally like, oh, that's a lion. I should run, or I should be very quiet, or, you know what I mean? So I think that we're designed to do that. But one of the things about this term divergent is then I thought we all isn't, neuro isn't the literal definition of divergent or neurodiverse, just anybody, because it's like if we're all on a spectrum of what sliders, like we were talking about in a number of ways, like introvert, extrovert or how you behave in this way, are you on this end or that end? None of us really fit into these are the criteria of this group or that group. We're all sliding around. So while I feel actually comfortable with hearing that term, and I feel like it's probably one of the first times in my life other than being creative that I felt like that label fit me.
- Like, oh, I feel comfortable with acknowledging myself as that. I think that it scares me a little bit because then it's a box that people can put you in and say, okay, you're divergent, so now we should do this, which is what our brains are designed to do. And I've mentioned it to people a few times that I feel like I am, and I've seen varying reactions like Benny was talking about. I don't think I listened to trips podcasts, but I've seen varying reactions to it. And it's because that's what's happening. They hear the word and then now they're making an assessment. So this means I need to behave this way around you, or I need to do these things for you. And I think a lot of it is more about you need the other person to be open to, you might behave differently than they expect. That's my assessment of the situation. I'll probably change it tomorrow
- Brendan Jarvis:
- As is your right to do. I was listening to that description there of how you were thinking about that. And I couldn't help but sort of parlay that back to design and how there's the in group and there's the outgroup, and it's in any area of humanity where we seek to define ourselves as one thing over another. And I think there's a danger in any realm where we do that, where we like to other, oh, then maybe not enough this or not enough that. And we actually take something that is in essence, a wonderful spectrum that is fully representative. Yes. And then we start to categorize it and put walls up. Now, I dunno where this is going but that's sort of thinking about the challenges that design has at the moment. Well, one of the challenges is also that sort of, we like to be part of the in group and put our wall up and the gatekeeper sort of thing comes to mind and who's good enough to be in this particular label?
- And I think there's maybe some things to contemplate there as to how well that actually helps us. Now I just wanna segue into something else, which is, I know that Sapiens was one of your favorite books as at least as far back as 2019, which is what, three years ago now. But another one was Don Norman's, the Design of Everyday Things. We were speaking about Apple, and clearly Don Norman had a role there early on. Now he said in that book, it's the Duty of Machines and those who designed them to understand people. It's not our duty to understand the arbitrary, meaningless dictates of machines. So if you take a 30,000 foot view of technology today and where it stands, and you contrast that with the technology that you were working on as a designer, let's say 10 years ago, are we getting better or worse at our duty?
- Becky Priebe:
- That's a really good question. I might shift that a little bit because I have a friend, he's actually has a degree in astronomy and mm-hmm a PhD in astronomy, but he does all sorts of technological things. And I shared this quote with him at one point years back, and he came back to me and said, is it though we really try to understand machines? What about the machines? And I thought that's interesting because when you think about where we're headed with technology, we're creating machines that are more and more human-like, right? We're getting closer and closer to developing things that are in our own image. And at one what point are we supposed to shift and start giving them the same empathetic analysis and the same consideration as we would a human, which is fascinating to think about. And I, for a long time, was a very big believer in this quote by Don Norman.
- And I thought, yeah, I mean this human-centered design machines should be designing to adapt to our needs. And I don't necessarily think that we need to adapt to machines, but maybe at some point, let's say machines are doing things that make the world more sustainable, should we adapt to that possibly? I mean, if we wanna continue to have a wonderful planet that we exist on. But yeah, that's interesting. That's a really interesting thought, something to think about. I would wanna ask Don Norman what he thinks now. I wonder if he's changed. Yeah, maybe I should. Yeah, maybe he
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Should. I'll get him on the show. Yeah,
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, totally. Maybe he thinks differently now. Yeah,
- Brendan Jarvis:
- That's true. It's something that I've actually asked a few guests. I think I asked Dr. Susan Wein a couple of weeks ago, that episode's not yet out, but it will be out before this one is so people can have a listen. I asked her if there were any things that back in the sort of mid eighties, early nineties when she was finishing her PhD and also practicing in the early, early edges of UX, usability and human factors, if there were any positions that she had taken that she'd since moved on from or come to revisit. And she mentioned a couple of things, actually, things that she'd accepted as fact, but then went back again to check the academic literature. And that actually found that it had become more of a superstition necessarily, or a fact that was applied outside of context and some things had taken their own path. But I was also thinking when you were describing that relationship between humans and machines, and I'm a bit of a Star Trek fan, and this has going to come up on the podcast Star Trek before. Yeah. I know you've got a Blade Runner poster and your background watching. I
- Becky Priebe:
- Do. Watching the video
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Might be able to see. Yeah, so you're obviously a bit of a sci-fi fan too, but this relationship between Jean Luke Picard and the next Generation and Data, this Chronicles, I think quite beautifully over, I think it's 150 ish episodes, that relationship between the humans and then the machine that was made in our image and some of the deeply ethical, but also very human stories that are told through that. It's actually, it's quite beautiful. I won't wax lyrical about it that for too much longer, but it's really, if you're into sci-fi and you haven't watched Next Generation or you haven't seen it in a while, maybe go back and watch it.
- Becky Priebe:
- I'm a big fan of, I actually wasn't a Star Trek fan. I do like science fiction, but I wasn't really a Star Trek fan until Discovery and Picard I Picard is amazing. And it also touches on a lot of that because the continuation of the line of data basically. But yeah, I mean there are some really fascinating relationship questions that come into effect there. One of the things too, it's interesting that we're talking about this because I was talking with a colleague of mine the other day about why do we call user experience? User experience? Why don't we call it human experience? It's always bothered me that we put user instead of human, but if you were to group humans and machines, maybe that those are users, right? Or
- Brendan Jarvis:
- It's ahead of its time.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, maybe. Or if you could group other things in there, maybe the earth is a user. If we're starting to design things like less human centric, more the system centric of humans are part of it overall system. And we need to think about it that way. Not that we're just the center of the system, but that we exist within something. That's an interesting thing to think about.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- And that's actually something that you have done professionally for a number of organizations, which is bring design into the organization. And I know that you've taken a systems mindset, at least when you've been doing that, and I'll just quote you now, you've said creating an experience with a system mindset requires a big picture view in order to generate optimal results. So why is that big picture view necessary? How, how does that help you to generate what you've coined there optimal results? And what are optimal results? How does this all fit together?
- Becky Priebe:
- Well, I think optimal results can be, they're varying based on what you want the system to do, but everything's a system. And in order to design well, I think you have to look at things systematically and understand what's happening. It's interesting because I believe that organizations are systems, they connect to other systems which are external to the organization, which is where the customer and the consumer and the user come in. I think that those systems have to be designed to give optimal results on both sides. So one of the things like, oh, the recent news of people, the employees at Apple talking about how remote work or how the systems within Apple are affecting them working, the systems within Apple are affecting what Apple produces as a product. So if that system isn't working, you can't really expect output to be optimal unless you're really probably putting in a lot of exertion and effort around making that happen.
- And I think in order to do that, you have to pull out, you have to look at things almost like you're observing a play or just looking down at the participants with yourself, possibly included. And just seeing what's happening. And so much of our time is spent inside a system that we have a very difficult time zooming out of it. We get inside the system and we're reacting to elements within it, which may be good or bad, probably both or neither. But then we have to, if we want to optimize it to get, okay, we wanna this specific outcome or we want make money, if we want to make money or we want to make the earth better or something like that, we have to look at what's happening from a zoomed out view, because otherwise we won't see the full realities of what's happening. And we'll probably do something that then shifts the system without knowing exactly what's going to happen.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Is this one of the reasons why design talks a lot about invalidating assumptions in evaluating ideas and designs with, I'm going to use that word, users?
- Becky Priebe:
- Oh yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, mm-hmm. Definitely.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Is that maxim, right? Yeah. Yeah. You are not your user.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah, I mean, I think that obviously getting feedback if you're designing something in a box without information coming in, any information coming in from the right people, it's kind of also something David was saying about that assumptions audit.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Yes, I saw you comment, actually, I'll come back to you on it.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, I really want to know more about that because I kept rewinding the podcast to hear it. I was, I kept hitting the back 15 seconds to hear the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. But when I was listening to it, I was thinking, how many times do we design things without inputs or considering the different types of people that might use it, or from an inclusive standpoint, specific groups that may be affected by that? We don't think about them as particular inputs into it.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- And it's a purposeful approach, that framework that David was speaking about. And I will reply to your comment on LinkedIn, but I will, I put in the show notes the link in the resource, I might message David actually and see if he can send that through to me. And I was thinking about this idea of design as a system, and I know you've spoken about that businesses and organizations are systems also, and that there are subsystems within systems. Everything is clearly, it's interconnected. And I was interested in your experience of when you are brought this is my own sort of summation of what I've learned about you from the outside looking in. So if I'm missing a bit of context here, please let me know. But when you've been brought in to bring design into an organization to effectively create this design, a design system, and obviously all the broader things that go around that, is design what you are trying to achieve? Is it seen and treated by the rest of the organization as a savior, the sort of night riding in on this white horse? Or is it more seen as a bit of a virus? Or is it just treated within, within indifference? What is the systematic yes response? How does this play
- Becky Priebe:
- Out? So, so interesting. I think it varies about, it varies based on who the person you're talking about is and where the organization is at as an organization or in a lifecycle of their product. Who the players are. Like most of the organizations I have come into are very engineering heavy. And a lot of that, because I've been involved in very emergent technologies, has been working with engineers primarily. And some of them not that excited about design. But one of the things I learned, I learned a lot from it. One, I developed a less rigid approach to design than I think a lot of designers have. I think that sometimes I look at it a little bit differently than what designers desire to have it be. And I've also realized that, I mean, if you look up the definition of design and you look up the definite definition of engineering, they're almost exactly the same thing.
- I mean, there's might be a very, very, very subtle difference, but they're almost exactly the same thing. But it's so fascinating to me that over the history of design and engineering, there's been like this tension of, are you a designer? Are you an engineer? And if you are, where do you fit into the process of the product design? And some of my work at bringing design into organizations has been very painful because people just do not feel it's needed. I've had people flat out say to me, we don't need design. Right? Really? Oh yeah, totally.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- What is it when they say that? So thinking about that, when that was last said to you, what do you think they're actually saying?
- Becky Priebe:
- I think they're in the instance that it was happening, it was fear of losing control over the product. I think that's what it was. And I think it's interesting because I love design and I love how designers design, and I love how we figure things out. I also love how engineers create things. I love how they're it, it's kind of magical in a way. They just make things work. You know what I mean? They're just like, I'm just going to make that work. And the designer's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We gotta figure it out. And what's the best way to make it work? Then you make it work. But the engineer's just saying, no, I'm just going to make it work. But if there's a way that designers can work, if you can find a happy way to work together where the designer is providing the value that designer thinking provides, and the engineer is providing the value that engineering magic provides, those things are so powerful together. I think we get caught up a lot in the when and how, which I think all humanity is caught up in that pretty much all the time. But yeah, it's a really fascinating thing.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Becky, listening to you describe that tension between design and engineering and also the strengths that each bring, particularly in the creation of modern product. I couldn't help but think of some historical examples of people in particular, people like Thomas Jefferson or Leonardo da Vinci, who they seem to be masters of more than one discipline. It's almost as if the really interesting advances, or the really interesting work of the day was happening when people were able to draw from multiple different perspectives and integrate those into something, and they weren't so caught up with defining themselves to be one or the other. And I'll just pick up on something that I've also heard you say, which is, and I'll quote you again. Now, a lot of times in companies, there's an isolation between design and engineering, or there's design isn't really seen as important as engineering, especially in engineering led companies. So it's really important that you give equal value to engineering and design so you get the best result. And so I really ag I agree with that statement. I was like, yes, that's a hundred percent what needs to happen. But my question is, what does giving equal value to those two disciplines actually look like?
- Becky Priebe:
- Well, I think it varies depending on the organization. I think that we've done a lot around processes to make a path from design to engineering. I think that some organizations, I've witnessed some that are more dominant on one side or the other. So you see things like product studios, which are generally more designed heavy. You see things like incubators or I'm not sure thinking of the term, I generally companies that are building a specific product. There's generally engineering and design is even part of engineering as a business unit. So design falls under that. I think it varies. I think that this is probably also what has driven me toward innovation and emerging technologies, because what tends to happen in those groups is they're just kinda all lumped in together.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- It's more Missy, you
- Becky Priebe:
- Got, yeah, you've got designers and engineers and they're all kind of just making stuff. They're we're coming up with ideas and then we're going to try it out. And I think that I'm a little bit of both. I actually describe myself when most people ask me what I do, that I'm maybe 70, 80% designer and the rest engineer. I don't ever wanna go greater than that because I think I would be insulting engineers if I did be like, well, I dunno about that. But I think maybe that's why I feel comfortable in those places. But I've also, when I went to school, designers are taught that there is a way that you do this, this is the way, and it's all like, this is what you do first. You sketch out some thumbnails, you do some diagrammatic clothes. It's like a whole, you do some wire frames, you do some visual concepts.
- It's, I'm mapped out kinda how it works. And that's when the engineers come in, they're like, let's make something right. But there are engineers that are also that same way. They're like, no, no, no, no, no. First we drop the system, we map out the whole system and how the system's going to work. Then we start building things. Because if you don't figure out the system first, you're going to build something that doesn't fit into the system. And so it's like, it's kind of those levels and sliders, again, there's varying parts, but I think back to that, that might be what drove part of my career, is just that attraction to the group where they're just the figure it out people
- Brendan Jarvis:
- We're very hardwired to notice difference. That's just part of, oh, of our ability to perceive the world around us. It's important for us to identify things that are different. And there is this tension between these innovation studios and the rest of the business. Often that comes to light. But I think it's a recognition that the people that make the current business model successful are not necessarily the same people that are going to create the future business model to sustain that success over the long term. And people have to be comfortable recognizing where their strengths are best applied. And this also applies within design. You've obviously been someone who's quite comfortable at the margin on the, not the messy middle. You're out on the frontier pushing the boundaries, trying to see where things might go. But there are also designers that are, they're not the creators of the design system, but they're the people that will implement it incredibly well and know their craft. And there's no one that's better than the other. I think you just have to know which one you are and go in that direction.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, it's interesting. I took this position, the role I'm in now, because I never work in a creative, truly, these are creatives, and I'm in awe of the people and the way they think many days and what they produce. It's very interesting. I feel a level of comfort there because they communicate in the same way I do. So in a lot of times when I've integrated design into engineering heavy environments, there's been difficulty because I communicate in a different way, then they communicate and it's caused friction between reaching, attaining, whatever we're trying to attain.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Do you run to the fire or do you run away from it when there's that friction?
- Becky Priebe:
- I think I told you I'm a kerfuffle.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Yes, you did. Yeah.
- Becky Priebe:
- I'm a professional actually.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- A professionalist. Yeah, [laugh]
- Becky Priebe:
- A professional, professional. I should have some sort of credentials. Actually, it varies. I think that some things that happened to me early on in my life made me avoid conflict that it causes a lot of, or maybe, and maybe there's something about I'm extremely sensitive person. Maybe there's something about divergence or something like that that's causing it. But it causes me a lot of anxiety and stress to have conflict. It gets better in environments where conflict is accepted, and it's just kind of part of how it works. It that is a little bit relieving to me, but generally speaking, it causes me to, I try to avoid, I have in the past tried to avoid it because it causes my brain. It makes my brain feel like it's not running at optimal capacity or capability. There's something that's interference. If you're sending a signal and interference is happening, that's what it feels like.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Do you ruminate on that conflict?
- Becky Priebe:
- Yes. And I do it in a way that's very, I think in an analysis, right? Oh, what's happening there? Why did this person say this? Why did this person say that? And what was the meaning of that? And I think I do that as I get older, getting better at just accepting that happens and moving on from it and thinking, okay, there was some conflict. Let's put it aside and we'll go back to where we were [laugh], right?
- Brendan Jarvis:
- I read your most recent blog posts, which I think was actually a couple of years old now, back in 2020, and I might have been just after the pandemic took hold. And you were talking about this idea of making space and the importance of making space. And I couldn't help but think, particularly when we've been talking about conflict about
- Becky Priebe:
- That's
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Interesting. The need to make space. So yeah, I was wondering in terms of what you'd written then, and then subsequently the last couple of years that have been, how have you applied this notion? What is this notion of making space? And how have you applied that, particularly in the commercial design environment where you know, often are bumping up against people with different perspectives and different agendas and people that don't always a agree with how wonderful our design workers and what trying to do.
- Becky Priebe:
- What's so fascinating is now that you say that some of what I just said, I'm looking back at it thinking, that's very interesting that I reacted that way because I actually believe 100% that some sort of conflict has to happen for change. It can be an inner conflict, it can be with another person. It can be with groups. It could be like all of the world. I mean, I think that those things have to happen for change to occur. I wondered what made me must be, there must be interesting things have happened to focus me on a certain type of conflict or something. But I wrote that because I think it was when Donald Trump was president, and I think it was when there were a lot of riots occurring in the us and I think it was when people were very upset about statues being toppled of southern slave owners and that kind of thing. And I was thinking that there's always kind of two or more sides to a story. And I was thinking how we have to make space for people to be angry because things have happened in our country that are not good.
- We've treated other humans in a not good way in many, many instances. And
- Brendan Jarvis:
- You're about to face, we have to another one too, from what I saw coming outta your supreme court,
- Becky Priebe:
- And we have to allow, especially what happened to the black population in the us, we have to let them have the space to be upset about it. And a lot of times I think that as I personally actually felt this way in college, there was a man who wrote a column called 40 acres and a Jaguar. Do you know the 40 acres and a mule reference? No, I don't. So in American history, when the slaves, slaves were given, brought into the US under indentured servants or whatever, they were promised 40 acres and a mule at the completion of the servitude. That was what they were, we will give you. And at the end of slavery. And so this man wrote this column that said, okay, by now, because we never received the 40 acres in a mule, we are owed 40 acres in a Jaguar.
- And at the time that he wrote, that was very my feeling growing up in the middle of the country, Midwest, very not exposed to international culture at that point in my life. I was like, why is he even saying that? I didn't have anything to do with that. And now I look at myself thinking that, and I think, I mean, come on. They have experienced a lot of terrible things. And if we're not allowed to be angry about that, or expect at least us to say, Hey, we're not going to put up statues of the people that were big proponents of it and basically forced you into servitude. I mean, I think that's a pretty obvious way to make amends [laugh] an interesting
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Thing. Unfortunately, not everybody looks at those statues and sees the same disgusting thing that others do when they look at them. And it's
- Becky Priebe:
- No,
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Don't, an interesting disconnect to observe. And it's obviously, I'm sitting in New Zealand from many, many miles away looking at this and see this play out. And now I'm seeing what's going on with abortion rights as well. And just personally, my personal observ observation with this is America has many dark chapters in its history, but it has also been a shining light in a world that was in a, that's true lot of conflict for a very, very long time. And we've just been through one of the greatest stretches of peace, largely because of our integrated economies that the world has ever seen. And that is, is changing. And there are some very important ideals and rights that are at stake in America at the moment. And I think if America wants to continue to be as an example of how to do certain things, then it needs to take a really hard look at itself and what it's currently been up to in the last few years.
- And when you were thinking about this idea of making space, I couldn't help but think about Ruth Beta Ginsburg, who was the now deceased former American Supreme Court justice. And I've watched her speak, and I don't know if you've seen her speak, but if you've ever watched her Senate, I think it's a hearing that they have before they're admitted to the court. If you go back and watch that video, it's only short 10 minute clip that I was watching. She makes space when she receives the question. She also makes space almost in between every word that she says. And I think if I think about that, I thought it was such a beautiful thing to witness. And it's almost like we, I'm getting a bit preachy here, but we all need to literally take that and apply that in our interactions with other people. And I feel like we'll actually be more able to understand different people's perspectives if we're able to take some space with how we express our own.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, I think you're right. And that's a very sometimes hard thing to do. But yes, I mean, really the greatest tool that we have as humans is empathy. That's our best skill, our most powerful skill. I mean, it's something that allows us to, the empathy and our imagination, those two things can change everything. And I think the better we get at those, using those, the better off we are. But we also have all these other things, emotions that kind of overtake some things sometimes. But you're right, the making space is also about that. It's about just giving time for things. And I think in my career, in my life, I've pushed forward a lot. I have to move this forward. I have to move myself forward. I have to move this product forward. I have to move this achievement forward. And I sometimes now look at it and think, what would've happened if I would've sat back right there? Or if I would somebody else have come with something better? Would something have happened that shifted me in another direction? And may what would've happened in that direction? Not to say that it was a mistake or not a mistake. I mean, pushing is good too. That's how we innovate, I think. But yeah, there's definitely times, and I personally am sometimes very, very poor at it. I have to consciously make myself, okay, listen now, let's see where this goes. Right?
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Yeah. Such an important, tricky skill. You spoke about empathy being one of the things that is so critical for us as people. And I, I've spoken about David Dylan Thomas a couple of times on this episode. He also, in our conversation, he mentioned a documentary called Exterminate All the Brutes, and this was a Oh, yeah, yeah, right. So this is a look at how genocide actually comes to be. And I think this is so poignant, given what's being been happening in Ukraine and some of the narrative that's come out about trying to deify the country and this very scary human tendency to demean other people to be less than human, which is clearly what happened in America with the slave trade. And clearly what has happened in Nazi Germany with the Jewish people, and it's clearly still going around. It's happened many times in Africa as well between warring tribes.
- And it is so critical, and it's also happening to certain degrees in our democracies in particular, it's been evident in American democracy with your political divide. And we have to be really careful that we don't dig a ditch so deep that we can no longer see the humanity and the people that are on the other side of it. It's a really important thing for us not to do. And I don't have any solutions here, but I think I agree with you that we need to find ways to maintain our empathy because terrible, terrible things happen when we don't.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, it's interesting where we are now because I think in some ways it was easier before so much globalization and technology and connectedness to put a group of people in a category of these are the bad people right now. And you see it in little ways and in big ways. So all of on social media, all of the conflict that was coming evident and through social media was just exposure of thinking and how people felt about things. And before World War II or whatever incidents you want to call upon, it was easier because you weren't exposed. I couldn't just talk to somebody in Germany or you know what I mean? Or couldn't been an interesting thing. And I sometimes think I know most people, and in many ways I feel same, that social media is horrible in many ways, but it has so much potential for good. I mean, if you think about its potential of connecting people from different backgrounds to each other to discuss things or expose each other to how they feel, how they think, what they do on a daily basis. When has that ever been possible? Never, ever. And it could be something that we take and are like, oh, right, we're going to make something amazing. We're going to use this to change the world. But I guess, I don't know. We are using it to change the world, but
- Brendan Jarvis:
- We just don't like some of the changes.
- Becky Priebe:
- We don't agree with people. So there's something called the human Library. Have you ever heard of that? No. There's a guy in, I'll have to send it to you. I think he might be in Copenhagen. He's created something called the Human Library. And the tagline of the human library is Unjudged someone. And the idea is that you go to a place, let's say a cafe or whatever, and there are people who are members of the human library. And you go there and you talk to them, they tell you about themselves, you tell them about yourself. And a lot of times they're from some completely different background as you, and he's about to put it online. So it's interviews with people from different backgrounds. And the whole purpose is to learn about somebody else and listen to them and generate empathy for that person. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. It's a library of humans. I think somewhere in some distant future when if we're not around anymore, aliens will watch it and be like, oh, this is what humans, they
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Had some potential. They just squandered it all away.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, there was a library though.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Now if you want a good design challenge, people figure out how to scale that scale. Empathy. I think that would be a worthwhile endeavor. Becky.
- Becky Priebe:
- Oh yeah.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- You've said, and I'll quote you again, A lot of people in my field UX spend a lot of time arguing over definitions of what things are, and it's very frustrating sometimes. So what are we arguing about that frustrates you and where instead shall we be? Should we be focusing our energy?
- Becky Priebe:
- Well, I think I get, Hey, it's not frustrated, but a little bit kind of, I'm just going to go over here and not pay attention. When designers spend a lot of time debating things. What kind of design you were talking about? Is it interaction design, is it UX design? Is it product design? Is it, I don't know. Right. I personally do not know. I don't even know what I am. Right? If you ask me what type of designer are you? I'd be like, I don't know. Right? I don't know. Cuz I don't know. I don't. And also it might be because of me being outside on the fringe of the design of the UX design world, or I don't know, maybe I don't fit into any of those things either. But it bothers me sometimes how much time we spend on that because I feel like design is a way of thought.
- It's how we look at things. It's not necessarily a series. Again, back to the boxes of which box do you fit in. I know that sometimes those things are necessary because in organizations you have to define people's roles in order to accomplish goals. And in order to do that, you have to say you are a whatever. I mean, in some big companies, they're like UX Designer two or whatever, and that is a specific type of role and you do these following things. But one of the things I also love about innovation teams, and I love that term of the fit not fitting in, that you have flexibility to think in different ways. You don't can be the da Vinci, you can be the person who thinks I'm going to just go try to build that. Or you can be the person who's like, let's sketch it all out. So I don't know who I am to say of how people should be spending their time. I'm probably just as guilty of getting up worried or consumed by things myself. But I think that when it comes down to it, the fun bit is the actual creating and the designing of things. So if we can, maybe others will have more pleasure in their life or happiness if they can think about that over what category you fit in.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- What a great note to end on. Becky, thank you for such an expansive conversation. Certainly we've traveled some roads together. I've really, really enjoyed it. I really appreciate you sharing your stories and insights with me today.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, it's been a great conversation. Thank you, Brendan. I really appreciated it.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Oh, you're very welcome. Becky. Becky, if people wanna find out more about you and about the work on the frontier that you've been doing, what's the best way for them to do that?
- Becky Priebe:
- [laugh], a really good question. I don't really seek out for people to contact me so much anymore, but I'm happy to talk to people. I have a website that's just BeckyPriebe.com, but there's just a few. I don't actually send people there for anything. So I guess I'm on all of the platforms, [laugh], social media, Facebook, LinkedIn, all those things.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- But I'll make sure that I link, I'll link to your LinkedIn and to your website if that's okay with you.
- Becky Priebe:
- Yeah, that'd be great.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Okay, great.
- Becky Priebe:
- Sounds
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Good. Thanks Becky.
- Becky Priebe:
- And hi to Dave. There must be a guy named Dave around there somewhere. Cause you said Dave at
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Oh da. Dave Dave's our editor. He does a wonderful job. Yes. Should give Dave more props on the podcast. Dave, you don't need to take, take this bit out. You can leave this bit in [laugh].
- Becky Priebe:
- Hi Dave. Thank you.
- Brendan Jarvis:
- Thanks Dave. We love you Dave. Alright, to everyone that has tuned in, it's also been great having you listen and potentially watch this conversation as well. As I mentioned wait, where you can find Becky will be in the show notes, including detailed chapters on YouTube to all the different areas that we've covered and the great stuff we've spoken about. If you've enjoyed the show and you want to hear more great conversations like this with world-class leaders in UX, design and product management, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Leave us a review as well. Reviews are currently few and far between, so more reviews would be appreciated, good, bad, or otherwise. And tell someone else about the show as well. So if you feel like there's someone that, that would enjoy these conversations at depth with people into design and into their lives, then share it with them too. If you wanna reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn, just type in Brendan Jarvis into search. I'm sure you'll find me. Or you can find a link to my profile at the bottom of the show notes. Or you can go to my website, which is thespaceinbetween.co.nz. That's thespaceinbetween.co.nz. And until next time, keep being brave.