Julia DeBari

Episode 103
Brave UX

The Insider's Guide to Design Recruitment

In this episode of Brave UX, Julia DeBari shares her experience as a design recruiter 🔦, how to navigate compensation and benefits 🚧, and what to ask to work out if a role is right for you 🦉.

Highlights include:

Why are recruiters told not to disclose salary ranges?
When and how should you bring up compensation?
Why should you invite doubt into a hiring conversation?
What do designers need to know about the recruitment process?
Why do you ask interviewers what makes them proud of their company?

February 7, 202301:21:51

Listen on:

Who is Julia DeBari?

Julia is the head of design operations for the Copenhagen Institute of Interaction Design, where she’s busy helping the design practice to be more effective and efficient 📈.

Before joining the Institute, Julia worked as a freelance design program manager focused on improving onboarding and education 🎓. Her clients included the Interaction Design Foundation, LinkedIn and The Hired Guns.

Julia’s career in UX began at the dawn of the millennium, as an interaction designer for a Dutch company called Internovation 🇳🇱. Since then, she has worked across startups, enterprise, and agency, including at Adobe, MRM Worldwide, Razorfish 🐡, Sapient, and Dell.

One of Julia’s great passions is design education and most recently she was the lead design educator at Flatiron School. Across the years she’s also been a design educator at Product School, UC Berkley Extension, Design Assembly and GrowthX Academy 🚀.

Transcript

Brendan Jarvis:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Brave UX. I'm Brendan Jarvis, Managing Founder of The Space InBetween, the home of New Zealand's only specialist evaluative UX research practice and world class UX lab; enabling brave teams across the globe to de-risk product design and equally brave leaders to shape and scale design culture. You can find out a little bit more about that at thespaceinbetween.co.nz.
Here on Brave UX though, it's my job to help you to put the pieces of the product puzzle together. I do that by unpacking the stories, learnings, and expert advice of world-class UX, design and product management professionals.
My guest today is Julia DeBari. Julia is a lead UX designer at AgentSync where she's busy designing software to make the insurance company ecosystem more effective and efficient.
Before joining AgentSync, Julia worked as a freelance design programme manager where she focused on improving onboarding and education. Her clients included the Interaction Design Foundation, LinkedIn, and The Hired Guns.
Julia's career in UX began at the dawn of the millennia where she started as an interaction designer for a Dutch company called Internovation. Since then, she has worked across startups, enterprise and agency, including at Adobe, MRM Worldwide, Razorfish, Sapient, and Dell.
One of Julia's great passions is design education. Most recently, she has worked at the Flatiron School where she was the lead design educator. Across the years, Julia has also been a design educator at Product School, UC Berkeley Extension, Design Assembly and GrowthX Academy.
Another of Julia's great passions is helping other UX people to grow and develop in their careers. Something that I'm about to explore with her in a little more detail. So on that note, it's my pleasure to have Julia here with me today for this conversation on Brave UX. Julia, welcome to the show.
Julia DeBari:
Thank you, Brendan. It's an honor to be here, and I just realized I'm a little intimidated since your last episode was with Don Norman
Brendan Jarvis:
[laugh].
No need to worry. No need to worry. You have every right to be here and I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you, Julia, very much. And something that I noticed about you when I was preparing for today and that I wanted to acknowledge is the tremendous amount of time and energy that you've invested into volunteering in this field. So just to give people a tiny taste of the scale of your investment, you are currently the design operations manager for the Copenhagen Institute of Interaction Design, a design specialist and project lead for the DIA Design Guild and a member of the Envision Design Leadership Forum. And previously you've been a mentor for Hexagon UX, the Interaction Design Foundation and ADP list where you've actually clocked up more than a thousand minutes of mentoring. Now I could go on and on and on. I think there's actually 19 volunteer positions in terms of mentoring that you've occupied during your career. But I was really curious, where do you find the time to do all of this on top of your day job and what gives you the energy to commit so much to it?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, thank you so much. That's a really good question, Brendan. So as far as time is I definitely, I'm one of those people who's really a big fan of time blocking my calendar. So for example, I'm insanely busy at work right now. We all have those. I'm one person managing eight products, but I quote clock out at 4:00 PM my time two days a week and block off two to three hours in the evenings for mentoring. So no matter how busy I am, I do try and schedule time and it's blocked on my work calendar so people don't schedule. It's blocked on my personal calendar. It's just something that I've always been really passionate about that I try and make time for
Brendan Jarvis:
That blocking out and that ability to switch context and stay in whatever the context is that you need to be in, whether that's work or whether that's mentoring that discipline to do that. Well, that strikes me that you must have a lot of discipline to do that. Is this something that you have to work hard to protect the boundaries around, or is this something that is now just so natural and easy for you that you don't even really consider it as a challenge to maintain those boundaries?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know if I've thought about it in quite that way just because I've always been someone who's blocked my time. No one told me that's the way you do it. I mean, I did this all the way back in high school, maybe even earlier as far as that goes. And then, sorry, just adding a little extra context. In high school, I actually took every single extracurricular activity the school offered literally when I graduated a 4.8 GPA because I took so many extra classes and that was just the same thing. It was just managing my time. And I'm also very organized but as far as you were talking about, so I'm good at blocking that time, but I do struggle sometimes with someone will be like, oh, please, please, can I just have this one meeting or just do this one thing? And honestly, it sometimes depends on my mood. Sometimes I'll be like, okay. And then other times I'll be like, no, I purposely block that off and it's something I've had to learn definitely as I was younger, I was way more of a quote pushover and would automatically just say yes to whatever someone said, but we all grow hopefully.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah. Well tell me about that, because saying no to people is actually way harder to do than we give credit for because there's things at risk there. Well, there's a perceived risk of offending someone by not giving them what they've asked for. What enabled you to shift, or what was it that changed for you where you decided that No, I actually have to tell people no, albeit maybe you're not doing it all the time, but what was it that gave you the confidence to start saying no to people? Yeah,
Julia DeBari:
It's definitely actually two things. I guess sort of a mind shift and one is actually sort of a UX kind of thing. And it's not just saying no, but no what other times or what else can we do? Not just like, no, but here are some other options, sort of the yes and thing that we learned about in UX. So that was one thing. And then the other was not needing some outside validation of, will this person not like me anymore because I said no. And I'm not saying I can always successful at that, but just sort of realizing does my self worth rely so much on what this other person thinks about me?
Brendan Jarvis:
I want to go back to something you said earlier, which was that you've been blocking this time out in your life as far back as high school, possibly even further. That is really interesting. And I was wondering about that, whether or not there was some role modeling that you had adopted or just how you came to approach the things that you do with such deliberate action. And you clearly do a lot of things which requires almost probably by definition for you to focus how you spend your time. So what was it, if anything, that you can recall that enabled you or provoked you to adopt that way of working?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, so it's sort of funny. Both my parents are very flaky to put it by no organization all over the place and they're also both self-employed. So add her that on top. And then my mom is one of those habitually late people. She had to drive me to school. I was dreading it because I would be an hour late to school if she drove me. And I mean, I did all those tricks you hear about of setting the clocks an hour ahead where she wouldn't make me late and stuff. And I would literally have times where I'd go to school and they'd be like, Julia, you're late. And it's embarrassing to be like my mom may be late [laugh]. Like it wasn't anything I did.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, I'm not the adult here. I'm not the one driving the car.
Julia DeBari:
So I think my organization and that kind of stuff actually grew out in a response of that was my rebellion was like, how organized can I be when I see how not organized my parents were? And every flaky thing you can think about a person, my parents were like that.
Brendan Jarvis:
I mentioned to you before we hit record, I'd had a conversation which has been published now with Pacini who we actually explored a little bit into his background with and his childhood. And this what you are touching on there, how we try and influence children or parents try and influence children, but you never really know just what they're going to pick up from what you try and lead them to. And in this case, Modo was telling me his parents were very introverted people and didn't have a wonderful social life and Modo looked at that and didn't want that for himself. And so he's the life of the party. He hosts people over at his house all of the time. He thoroughly loves it but it was through experiencing the sort of absence of that as a child that led to him developing that appreciation for people and that want to have them more and more in his life. That's similar to what you are suggesting there with your need to manage time came from obviously observing and living through being a child under your parents' roof and feeling some of the frustrations with the lateness and the disorganization.
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, yeah, that's very true.
Brendan Jarvis:
Julia, I want to come back to your work in mentoring and clearly person personal development of others is something that you really, really value. And there's actually a quote on your website and it's on your website's homepage and it's by Johan Wolfgang von Gerta and Gerta is more commonly known and it says, treat people as if they were what they ought to be and you help them to become what they are capable of being. Now that quote didn't end up there by accident. In fact, I think it's the only thing that's written on your homepage. So why did you choose this particular quote to Greek people when they arrive on your website?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, I mean it's definitely a philosophy that I strongly believe in and it's definitely the way I go into my mentoring and teaching and educational relationships. And I guess it's also something as I think about it, and I'm currently at a new job that I try and go into with any relationship is I'm not a naturally optimistic person, but I realize that. And so I try and go into it with maybe not optimism, I don't feel if that's quite the right word, but this person's trying both trying, let's try the best together
Brendan Jarvis:
Thinking that quote's quite a lot of depth to that quote and clearly it's something that you connect with. And I was curious who treated you as if you were what you ought to be?
Julia DeBari:
Wouldn't it be horrible to say I can't think of a single person.
Brendan Jarvis:
Interesting. That's interesting. So where does your appreciation for this way of being in the world? Where does it come from? Is it from no one treating you in that way?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, that's exactly a lot of my things in my life and my personality are shaped actually by the opposite of what I experience and I don't want other people to do that. So another example I was just talking to someone earlier about this today I seem to have a knack for picking managers that are too busy, don't have time. I even had one job where I never actually ever met my manager at all in two years. Not even an email, nothing. They were just a name on an org chart, just people always too busy. So I learned the hard way that things that we tell juniors now, but no one's going to care about your career. And so then when I have been a manager, I am like, I want to grow you. I want to spend time and I want to make you the best possible employee or whatever you want. If you want to leave I I'll support you. And I guess it's that kind of thing too is I want to be the manager. I wish I had basically
Brendan Jarvis:
You recently posted about your predicament on LinkedIn and I sense a little bit of frustration in this and it's to do with not being in a position where you're able to devote as much time and energy and attention to helping others grow. Things are super, super busy. So for someone who has previously said, which is on your website, my personal mission is to help others realize and use their potential to experience success as a leader. I truly care about the development of my team members and they respect me for that. And this post that I mentioned on LinkedIn was suggesting that you just don't have that time. And so I was wondering, is it that your personal mission has changed? Has there been a shift for you there or is it just the circumstance that you currently find yourself in?
Julia DeBari:
No, it's just the circumstance that I currently find myself in. I mean, I don't know, I guess dunno if this is an oversharing. Basically I came into my current job and I asked as many questions as I thought I could during the interview process. And I did think the interview process that I had at my current job was the best I've ever had in my entire career. And so I was super positive, but I was told that my job would be to build out a team and a function within this company. I love doing things like that. And I was like, all right. And I really liked every single person I met and everything. And then I guess right before I wrote that post being a little emotional here on that LinkedIn I was told that that has been deprioritized and not as important for the company anymore.
And that I just sort of got to suck it up, work with what I have. It's funny because before this, so this all happened in the last two weeks before that, my boss literally my second week is like, okay, what do you want for a team? Tools like resources, headcount, just tell me your ideal, whatever you want. And I kept going, are you sure? We're not a big huge tech company. I know we don't have unlimited resources. He's like, no, just go for it. And I was like, really? And he's like, I think he was getting annoyed that I kept going, are you sure? And I was like, all right, you said it. Like I said, are you sure? Four times? And then things didn't work out. So I think I was just reacting to that disappointment a little obviously on social media, letting it color my thoughts.
And so I was really excited to build out a team. And it's not that it's never going to happen, but it's definitely on pause for a significant amount of time. And I understand the company's reasons and why that is so, and for me it was more just the constant buildup of you can get whatever you want, and if they would've just been, we don't know, or just ask for what you want and we'll see what happens. And I would be like, okay, we don't know what's happening with the economy right now, but I just felt built up a lot and then now I'm disappointed. So what's interesting actually is I wrote that post and I got a lot of people like, oh my God, are you okay? Are you okay? And I'm like, okay, maybe I need to tone my own voice down on social media. But it's like, then what happens though is now I'll be like, okay, then if I can't build a team at work, then I'm going to go do more mentoring. So I'll probably block off more time on my calendar to offer more mentoring sessions. Since I can't get that at work, then I will find it outside of work.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, it's great to hear that you're still able to scratch that itch, so to speak, and contribute to others' careers. And that way it just might not be in the day-to-day, right, for people in design that are managing others and are finding it difficult to find that time or make that time to do that. This is actually something that you've touched on before previously, and you've said about this when I was in UX design, and this is when you were working as a recruiter and I was a manager and I was hiring, I was much more open to mentoring whoever the new person on the team was. And I've noticed that a lot of hiring managers are just too busy and don't have the time. So we still have the same amount of time in the day, we've got 24 hours, and that hasn't changed. So where did all the time that we may have used to have had to do mentoring, where did that go?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, I mean I guess also relating to that LinkedIn post or just referring to about me not saying I have enough time. And why is spending being, or actually, are you talking about within your day-to-day job or you're talking outside of day-to-day jobs?
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, take it wherever you like. I mean look at it holistically if you, that's totally fine.
Julia DeBari:
Okay. So in one way, how about this? I don't think the time has gone away to answer your question, but for my specific example is I now have to prioritize different things because of the company decisions that I won't be getting a team. So now I need to prioritize specific products and releases and stuff that I thought other people were going to support when I was a manager. I just, I've been talking about my thread, this whole thing is I blocked out specific time to manage and mentor. And I guess that's something else that maybe I'm not super clear about. When I block out time, I block out times for even things that you might think of as like, oh, that's just what to do on my task list. For example, when I was a recruiter, I would literally block out an hour just to send email updates to people of You didn't get the role or whatever. I block out so many things if need to do something. It's not a to-do list. A to-do list is easy to just skip and it's a binary yes or no. No, you block out time to do the thing on the to-do list. And so
Brendan Jarvis:
You and I are on the same page. Okay. I think if I could share my calendar with you right now, I think you would hopefully find a kindred spirit as far as blocking things out. I totally hear what hear you, what you're saying about blocking out, sending people emails as well. I did that yesterday and it took me an hour and a half and I think I blocked out an hour. I'm always surprised at how long it takes to reply to emails. Well,
Julia DeBari:
Yes, me too, me too. And the same thing. And so just add to what you and I both just said. When I worked in agency or multiple agencies, you have to track your time and fill out all the stuff. And I would literally block out one hour to do admin tasks, and then I would list what those specific tasks are in the calendar invite or whatever it was for myself so that I was like, yes, I'm going to do these things. I'm going to sit there in our stupid old fashioned time tracking machine and block out time for every project I worked on.
Brendan Jarvis:
So are you suggesting then that hiring managers, UX hiring managers, design hiring managers who are not able to find the time to mentor their teams is because they're not able to appropriately manage the boundaries of their own work days so they can fit that in?
Julia DeBari:
I mean, I guess I sort of do feel like that. I feel awful saying that. And I mean everyone's different, but I, I guess I look at work and I also at work, basically everybody in my close immediate team is really overworked. And I mean this product managers and engineers that I'm working with and stuff. And so I can see everybody's calendar, I don't know, pretty common I guess at workplaces. And it's funny, I'll look at people and there's one person I work with. I get along with everyone really well. I really like everyone, and I can see they actually do the same thing. I can see them blocking off their calendar and they have 10 direct reports and all this stuff, and they have everything blocked out and when they're going to be once. And then I look at my manager, he has nothing blocked out.
It's just a random collection of a million meetings. And I guess that's the other thing is what happens is if you don't block time out, then it gets eaten up by more and more meetings. But for example, I had a meeting that got scheduled for this morning at 6:00 AM this morning for a meeting at 8:00 AM and I usually, I'm actually really good at responding, but I was really busy and I didn't, and the person's like, are you coming this meeting? And I was like, no, you saw I had my calendar blocked off. I'm sorry, but you scheduled a meeting when I'm already busy, I'm happy to, if you record it, I'll watch the recording and we can catch up later offering other options again. And so it's definitely something I think people also is, if you do block off your calendar, sometimes people are like, oh, well they're just doing a task so I can schedule a meeting. But having a pushback on those boundaries as well as that doesn't mean it's free for all meeting time. And I think that's something company I need to work at. My current company, we're very meeting heavy, very, very meeting heavy, and a lot of us are remote. And so that's something too, you know, come into a very meeting heavy company culture and having to balance your calendar and the millions of meetings and stuff like that. And it's not something that happens on day one, it takes some time.
Brendan Jarvis:
Is that something that was obvious to you when you were interviewing?
Julia DeBari:
No, and I actually asked a specific question about this, and actually now that I look back on it, I realized I made a mistake in that the person I asked wasn't a manager who was an individual contributor. And so they're like, oh no, not at all. I don't have, they're, it's a good balance of work time meantime, but I think if I would've asked that of say the person who's my boss, it would've been a totally different answer.
Brendan Jarvis:
And let's talk about a shift that you made into, and then out of recruitment, I believe this year, and I have listened to you talk about this, and I got the sense that you tried your hand at recruitment because you felt that you weren't able to have as much impact as you would've liked doing design program management. And what I wanted to ask you was how did your expectations of recruitment, so working as a recruiter of designers, how did that end up aligning with the reality of that work?
Julia DeBari:
So actually my intention to become a recruiter was not that I'm changing my career or anything like that, it was literally a covert contextual analysis, honestly. Or when you shadow someone doing their job, I'm blanking on what the
Brendan Jarvis:
Premise, contextual inquiry.
Julia DeBari:
Okay, yeah, yeah, sorry. Okay. So that was actually my intention. I went into that job only intending to be there six months, but I didn't tell anyone that when I was interviewing or anything. I really just wanted to understand. I talk with so many people and I have my own struggles and the job search process and dealing with recruiters and all that stuff. And so I wanted to know what's really going on. So this was my, let me sneak in there and see what it's like from the other side. That was my intention. Yeah, it was interesting and it was definitely an experience where there's things that people can tell you, but you don't get it until you actually experience it. The amount of work, sadly, I was like, oh, I'm not going to be every other recruiter. And I definitely think I did some things differently, but you know, have someone breathing down your neck, this role needs to be filled, aap, fill this, fill this fill. I don't want to hear your reasons of why you can't find the right person. Just shut up and fill this role like a s a. And then you have 12 people doing that at one time. There's definitely pressure as a recruiter. So that was one thing, you hear it, but actually experiencing it. But sadly, even as I say that I don't have as much sympathy as I probably should because I was able to make it work and I'm like, well, if I could do it, other recruiters could do it.
Brendan Jarvis:
How much of that feeling as a result of the conditions that you were working under, it sounded like almost like a very high pressure, almost like a hazing style of work where you either could do it or you couldn't. There was no excuses. I don't want to talk to you about your excuses, just get the job done, but how formative? Yeah, very. Yeah. How formative was that experience for you? Did it squeeze some of the empathy out of you
Julia DeBari:
In one way? No, because I was like, okay, I get it. But I was like, I'm going to make this work. I can do this. So for example, people apply and I'm sure we've all heard, oh, recruiter spends five seconds on your resume or whatever. And yeah, I had my boss breathing down my neck and I would look at people's resume, I looked at their LinkedIn, I Googled 'em like I did all this stuff and if I said anything, she would be like, stop wasting your time. Don't do that. That's not necessary. So then I just don't tell her. That's one thing I've also learned in UX and stuff as well is and I remember actually thinking about this back in 2003 and not really formulating my thought, but sometimes telling people your process makes them trust you less because they see how much time they think it's going to take.
If I go to you and I'm like, okay, I want to do the full UX design process end to end, and it's going to be this and then this as a higher up, you're going to be like, oh, this is going to take too long, don't tell me that. And then I learned at another job, I just didn't say anything and I just did it without explaining it. But then giving them people results that they were like, oh wow, this was great. They were really happy. So that's something I also didn't recruiting. I was like, okay, when I say what I'm doing, when they ask for why something takes so long, then they're fighting me. But then when I have really good results and I don't say what I'm doing, they're pretty happy.
Brendan Jarvis:
Donna Spencer, who is an IA UX consultant from Australia who's been a previous guest on the show, one of the very first, actually I think she was number five. Oh, in episode five she talks about this as well. She talks about don't talk to stakeholders about your process. And I think this is perhaps hopefully becoming fairly common a common way of thinking now in the way in which we present work to stakeholders as talk about the outcomes, think about what it is that they need to hear, which is not how wonderful our process was and how thorough it was and all the bumps along the way, but actually what should we learn and how is it going to help them to make a better decision? So I completely hear what you're saying there about the posture that you've adopted with that manager so that you could actually get on and do the job. And it didn't matter how you were doing it, and it was just whether or not you were able to achieve the outcome that the manager was seeking.
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, I guess I was saying, I thought about this a long time ago just cause I'm old school, but the original, I dunno if it was the UX design process anyway, it's just blue and yellow diagram with this waterfall UX process's huge. And if you showed that to someone, they'd be like, why would I hire UX? You guys are going to take way too much time and money. And I remember discussing this with a coworker and stuff like that. And then it was funny because I think just a year or two later is when Agile started being thrown about and stuff like that. And I just remember thinking, yeah, if I was a manager and I saw that huge diagram, I'd be like, no, thank you.
Brendan Jarvis:
Progressive disclosure is our friend here. Yeah. Speaking of disclosure, one of the topics that makes people uncomfortable when they're going for a new position is money. It can be a very confronting topic for very many reasons. Each of them quite personal to the individual yet money is something that it has something that has a direct impact on our quality of life. And being able to talk about money with confidence, being able to navigate those conversations is something that can actually help us to earn more of it. And I've heard you talk about this in the past, you've said as a recruiter I was told don't tell the candidate what the pay range is. Ask them what they want to make and you just adjust the conversation based on what they say. So rather than disclosing the salary, and this is a hot topic at the moment, often jobs will not disclose the salary and they will leave that opaque on purpose. How do you feel about the approach that you were told to take as a recruiter when it comes to compensation?
Julia DeBari:
Oh, I didn't agree with it at all. And I actually remember being told that by my boss and I was like, okay. Especially there was one example, I was actually super excited because one of my roles was for a junior designer, was so excited, I was just like, yay, a junior person gets a job. I was super excited and I was doing the screening call with them and I was told don't give the salary. And I think they said like, oh, this is what I'm looking for. And I straight out was ask for 20,000 more. I was just straight up saying that which if my boss would've found out, I might have been fired on the spot.
Brendan Jarvis:
But that's interesting though, right? Because I don't know how it works in the states, so tell me if it works differently, but here recruiters tend to earn a percentage of the total compensation package. So there's almost an incentive for a recruiter to secure a position for a candidate with the highest compensation that they possibly can.
Julia DeBari:
Yes, it's exactly the same here, at least where I worked. And it was this weird thing though where, so part of it was meeting with the hiring manager and understanding their criteria and their budget and things like that, and that's where that sort of salary range came from. But yeah, there was definitely the saying like, oh yeah, don't tell the candidate that, but I would just be straight up and if they told me a number that I was like, that doesn't even come close to what the hiring manager budgeted, then I wouldn't tell them the exact number. But I'd be like, you can ask for more.
Brendan Jarvis:
What is it that you suspect that hiring managers or whoever is shrouding salary and secrecy? What is it that they are seeking to achieve by doing that?
Julia DeBari:
When my boss asked me for headcount and I asked, okay, what's my budget kind of thing, they were saying, oh, you can get three people for this amount. And I'm like, why did they all have to be seniors and why do we all this? Let's spread the budget out more so we can have a range of levels of roles. And I think that's another thing too is people are, I don't know if it's the same outside the US but it's senior, everything senior and then seniors are going to cost more money. But I'm like, well, let's hire someone not senior and then help them grow and then that gives them opportunities and then we can hire more people. So basically my boss was like, oh yeah, hire three seniors. And I'm like, how about I hire one senior in three mid-levels or a junior and he's like, oh, whatever you want at the time when,
Brendan Jarvis:
Well, let's come to hiring juniors in a moment. Let's just stay on this idea of, or this topic of compensation for just a little longer. So what should someone who's going for a position do if they aren't able to get a straight answer about the compensation?
Julia DeBari:
You should always ask what's the budget for this position and then what's the intended growth rate as far as money for this position? And then the other thing, it's funny, I tell people a lot, and I know Amy's really behind this too, there's lots of stuff to negotiate besides money, time off or something. So one thing, time off or all sorts of different benefits and stuff you can negotiate. And that's one thing I've been seeing a lot of people getting upset at return to office and stuff like that for places, which I get honestly, I'm like, no, don't make me go to the office. But that's something you can negotiate if you're interviewing at a company and they're like, oh, you have to come in the office three days a week or whatever and you really like the company, you can be like how about instead of salary, let's negotiate me going into the office. Yeah,
Brendan Jarvis:
Let's follow this thread. I haven't forgotten about junior's, but let's just follow this thread a little further. So interviewing for a new role is a conversation, but it's a very special kind of conversation. And you mentioned the word negotiation and that is what it is. It is a negotiation. Each side is attempting to, I suppose, maximize the value or the outcome for themselves while still keeping each other happy. Well, that's the ideal. Now if you are, you're trying to negotiate salary and you mention other things like where you work, those types of things come into the mix, benefits, other things like that. But you're going to have to bring this up at some point and you're going to have to talk about the actual cash at some point as well. So when that time comes, first of all, when is that time? When is the most appropriate time? If you don't have a salary disclosed for a role or a compensation package disclosed, when is the most appropriate time to bring that up? And what should people do to prepare for that conversation in advance? Or what can they do to give themselves the best chance of having that conversation? Well,
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, so a couple things. I would bring it up in the very beginning when you're talking with the recruiter because I mean you need to know it's fair to both of you. If the salary range is nowhere within your means, you wouldn't take it. Don't waste everybody's time. So bringing up that screening call with the recruiter, bring it up, don't need to. So
Brendan Jarvis:
Literally the recruiter calls you and you say at an appropriate point in that conversation, Hey, just so you know, I'm only going to accept roles that are in the realms of X and Y dollars.
Julia DeBari:
Yep,
Brendan Jarvis:
Yep.
Julia DeBari:
Although to your point, you actually shouldn't give out the number first. What you should do is ask the recruiter, well what's the budget for this role? What's the minimum and the maximum or how high would they go? And usually they'll give you a range, most will. And then you can be like, yeah, that doesn't fit within my budget or whatever. Or you could be like, well what other things? And this is where you can bring up, what other things can I negotiate? I actually know someone who recently was negotiating at JP Morgan Chase bank and they want people to go in, I think three days a week or something, and they were able to negotiate a fully remote work thing. And it's funny because on the job it literally says you must go in three days a week. They called that out in the job description, but this person was like, I really want to work here. I don't know why, but they really did. They were going for it. And back to my thing about these comments on LinkedIn, almost everything is negotiable. So even if the office says, or the job description says you must go into the office or whatever, that's probably negotiable.
Brendan Jarvis:
Do you foresee the power that has for a long time, and I'm speaking generally here, sat with tech workers to negotiate benefits? Do you see that changing given the state of the tech industry at the moment?
Julia DeBari:
No, actually I don't actually hope that crazy salaries go down because I mean, I know we all to talk about, oh, if these tech CEOs didn't take so much money, then they wouldn't have had to lay off thousands of workers. But I, I feel bad saying it's not just these tech CEOs, there's other people that make so much, much money and I'm like, do you really need to make that much money? I mean I can go off on this whole thing about capitalism and stuff like that and is that really necessary? And so what I'm actually hoping is that with the state of things are that it's not that tech can't negotiate these things, that it actually runs into other industries that people in not tech roles can or not tech companies can negotiate other things.
Brendan Jarvis:
Now you were talking there about someone going for a job at JP Morgan and Chase and being able to negotiate whether or not they came into the office three days a week. And I think you made a really important point, which I want to echo, which is that everything's negotiable. And that's almost like a dirty secret that no one really tells you when you are an employee. And it's true. And that's something for people to think about when it comes time to interviewing at a next job, you should really look at everything that's on offer and push back and ask for things that you want. The worst that's going to happen is that they'll say no, and you won't get the J or you might not get the job, but there will be another job out there. I want to come back to what you're talking there about kind of work life balance in many ways.
Where do I get to work? And covid has clearly changed the face of work for a lot of us a who are privileged enough to work with computers on a daily basis. And many workplaces have embraced flexible working arrangements. They've embraced remote, some are fully remote, but not everyone like JP Morgan and Chase that you mentioned, not everyone has, there is a pushback against this and some sectors or some companies are requiring people to return to the office and I think that's been fairly well publicized. So you have some questions that you suggest that people interviewing for jobs ask of the people that are interviewing them to help them to determine whether or not the culture or the way in which the company thinks about the employee employer relationship is going to work for them. And one of them is what kind of work arrangements do people have Now that's quite a broad, probably intentionally. So question and I was wondering about this. So why did you use the term work arrangements specifically instead of being more direct and asking if it's a flexible working arrangement or remote friendly?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, I guess in that case I specifically want to leave it open-ended like that because maybe you want to just work four days a week or maybe you want to leave at two every day or be logged off at two every day. And that's why I didn't want to be specific remote or not remote or something to and I think that's one thing I tell a lot of my mentees as well is trade the interview one-on-one in-depth interview with each person you're talking to. Start with your broader questions and then just you're doing with me dig deeper on things. And I think that's one thing I've had to learn myself also is it can be scary interviewing. And it's funny, I'm not scared of interviewing at all anymore and I get lots of rejections. I get tons of rejections, but I'm not scared of interviewing because I think about it, I'm interviewing someone for, I would at work.
And it's funny, I have a really good friend, she's worked at the same company for 15 years and as anyone who can at my LinkedIn that's not my style at all. And one of the reasons is is just because she's scared of interviewing, she's scared of going through that process. And I was absolutely terrified for the first 15 years of my career. But it's also of those things, the more you practice also the less scary it is. And I was or still am one of those people I'll interview for a job, even if I'm not looking just to keep my skills up to date, see what's out there. I'm not looking to leave necessarily, but what is the interview process? What is it like also so I can help mentor people and be like, yeah, I just had that exact same experience myself. I've literally interviewed at jobs where they've asked the horrible design challenge homework or whiteboarding and I might not have even been looking for a job, but I wanted to go through that myself so then I could give advice that hopefully was helpful to my mentees.
Brendan Jarvis:
And one of those pieces of advice that you've shared publicly before is, and I'll quote you again, you've said, remember interviewing is a conversation, not an interrogation. When someone says, so the person interviewing you says, do you have any questions? Say yes. Always say yes. So what does it communicate to the hiring manager if you have no questions for them?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, actually what's interesting, I didn't really think about it like this until it was a recruiter, but actually when you say I don't have any questions, it also suddenly says to me that you're not actually that interested in this job. I didn't realize that. And no one out loud ever said that to me. But then when I was unquote on the other side and I would talk to candidates, I was like, oh, okay, if you're not excited or wanting to know more, then I'll just find someone else who is.
Brendan Jarvis:
So that's actually a tool that you can use if you are genuinely not interested and you don't want to be as direct as saying that, you can kind of say it without saying it by saying, I don't have any questions. Let's talk about role expectations then. Because these are things that are natural for people to have of many things in life, not just roles, relationships, other things. We build them up to be something in our mind and then we get to, if we're lucky, experience it and see if those things line up. Now I know there's, schools have thought out there that we should try and have no expectations, therefore we'll have no disappointment. But that's just, well, quite frankly, that's not very human. So one of the things that you have suggested here, or a question that you've suggested that people can ask to understand what the expectations will that will be upon them if they're successful and get the job is what are some of the things that new designers or if it's a researcher researchers could do in their first 30 days to set them up for success? So what should a good answer? What should the candidate, the person going for the job be listening for? What does a good answer to this question look like or sound like?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, it's actually really funny because I asked that question myself When I'm interviewing, I actually haven't gotten very good answers. But as a new hire, I like the things I do, I would suggest I do a listening tour of every team that I work directly with. So for example I started this new job, I've been there six weeks and I've completed a listening tour with every product manager with every front end and full stack engineer I work with. I'm currently starting a listening tour with all our customer support people. And
Brendan Jarvis:
What's her listening tour? Tell me about that. I don't know. I don't know what that
Julia DeBari:
Is. Oh, okay. Yeah, I don't know if it's an official term. I think I heard it from, I don't know, it's my turn. I don't know if I'm pronounce her name right, Leia Bully in UX team of one. Definitely recommend that book. But yeah, it's definitely a way just to build relationships and understanding. And it's something I've done for many years, every new job and it's just sort of a meet and greet, half an hour, 45 minutes I find easier where you just get to know someone. Like I'll send a little agenda. I've even sent mentees templates of things I use just like, Hey, I'm a new ex on the team. I wanted to know what your day-to-day like is and your process. And then in these meetings I also, I'm like, how can I help you in your job kind of things. What
Brendan Jarvis:
Do people usually say to you? Is there any sort of theme in terms of response when you ask them that question?
Julia DeBari:
Actually almost everyone's usually shocked that I'm a new person offering to help you. And I'm like, yeah, of course. And I'll usually tie it back to, I want to improve your relationship with design or whatever we're building or something like that is tying it back to something that can also benefit them. But then it also helps me get to understand them better and what's important to them. And so just for an example, I just said I finished talking to a lot of the engineers. I had my thoughts going in of one thing that would really help is a design system, but I didn't mention that at all until after I heard from the engineers and I'm like, what could help you? And they're like, well, you can't code so you can't help me, but God, I hate having a copy and paste code from different places and stuff like that.
And I was like, well actually I can help you. And then explaining how I can help and stuff like that. So that's just an example. So that's one thing I do. So I think that was a very long-winded, not real answer to your question, but what I'd want to hear from someone if I was an interviewee or candidate asking that question is I want you to take time to understand the organization and its goals and its business strategy and why it exists in the market and build relationships. I want to hear those words build relationships. And I've never heard that from anyone when I've interviewed, but that's what I want to hear.
Brendan Jarvis:
That's somewhat telling perhaps of the state of things. Speaking of the state of things, something else that's often useful for people to understand before they start in a role or while they're interviewing is what is actually going on. And I thought that your question here was an excellent one because it actually gets at this quite directly and also indirectly, there's something really nice about this question. I better read the question so people can actually understand what that is. The question is what are the most pressing projects that need to be addressed? So how does knowing what those things are actually help the person who's applying for the job there, what is it that they're listening for there? How are they using that answer to try and help them work out whether this is somewhere that they want to work?
Julia DeBari:
Two things actually. One is whoever's answering that will tell you whatever's top of mind to them. And then you know can be like do I want to work on that? Do I want to spend my energy on that? And you can be mentally yes or no and continue the process from there. And then the other thing is sort of understanding what the company values. So for example, that's one reason I took this current job is I asked that question myself of every person I talk to, almost everyone said, we need help showing our value to our customers. I dunno if I'm going to say this right, cause don't, it's been a while if I'm remember it exactly, but they're, we feel that design can help elevate our value or something to our customers or something like that. And then I dug in a little more deeper about that, but that was something that was really nice to hear. They knew they don't have a design department, they don't have designers, but they knew it was important and they cared about it and it was a top priority for every single person I talk to.
Brendan Jarvis:
I think I like this question because you can ask it in a way that it pierces the pretense that interview situations can set up where everyone's there with their happy smiling face, trying to put their best foot forward and do the song and dance and everything is good. There's nothing sort of, no fires burning here. It's a great place to work, all that sort of thing. And I feel like you can really get to what's actually going on behind the scenes if you position and press this question in the right way at the right time with the right people. It's a really, really, really good question. Something else that I felt was a good question to ask that you had suggested, and that's when people are trying to understand the culture, the meeting culture we touched on earlier, how does this place actually work? Because I just said people are putting up putting forward their best foot in an interview situation and it's actually can be quite a false situation. So these questions that you're suggesting are really neat because they help people to try and actually uncover what's going on. And the question is, what is the culture of when and how people like to give and receive feedback. So you are trying to dig into here I suppose, what the lines of communication look like between team members and perhaps between the team members and direct managers. So what is it that people should be listening for when they ask a question? What is the culture of when and how people like to give and receive feedback?
Julia DeBari:
So definitely things to listen for are everyone here is open to feedback. And you will hear that a lot here, earlier point of, oh, we want to all be happy and show the best. So it's like, of course we all want to receive back, receive feedback, and we all want to grow, but then you take that to the next level and be like, can you tell me the last time you gave feedback and how it was received? So with a lot of these questions, it is sort of high level. I mean like I said, it's just our UX interview process. It's high level and yeah, you'll probably get the nice happy answer to start, but then dig into specifics what I just said. Or another one is, another one related that I ask is how is feedback shared to a team versus an individual or how is positive feedback shared versus negative feedback? And then one thing I actually at my current company, and they didn't have this when I started, they just rolled it out a week ago, is now in everyone's Slack profile. It says how I like to receive feedback and it's something that everybody fills out so I can see it when I go over everyone's profile.
Brendan Jarvis:
Has anyone ever said, I don't like to receive feedback?
Julia DeBari:
I haven't seen one yet, although I did appreciate some people are funny and one person said, I prefer my feedback by carrier pigeon [laugh], like things like that. Don't know if I'm supposed to take that as just funny and take forever to give you feedback or something, but so
Brendan Jarvis:
Well Christina, Christina Vodka who's been on the show recently, she has some great wisdom to share here about the benefits of fast feedback and how the most functional teams, and I don't mean just teams that actually work well together, often have this culture of being able to share feedback frankly and fast with one another because there's an understanding that speed of feedback and the gift of feedback is best given as close to the moment as possible of the time where the situation that required feedback arose. Because with time, distance and time in between that and when you give the feedback, there's a whole bunch of I suppose, value that's lost in the lack of immediacy to address that with someone together. And you're actually not doing them a service by delaying giving that feedback. Of course, there's lots of nuance there and everyone's teams are different and the personalities within those teams are different. But if you're listening and you want to tap into a bit more on that topic, then check out that episode with Christina. Christina Vodka.
Julia DeBari:
Can I add something to that?
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Julia DeBari:
Yeah. So I'm a big fan of Christina's and that is actually from her book, the team that managed itself, which is one of my favorite books or I don't know if my favorite books, it's up there in my top industry reading, I should say. It's one I've really pulled a lot of stuff from for how I manage and how I work with people. Is that book honestly?
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, it's wonderful. And she's a real leading light as far as collaboration and as you'll know also from in terms of OKRs and other things, very on point, it's definitely worth well checking out. Now, here's an excellent question and the question is, what makes you proud to work at this company? Why is it important to understand what makes potential colleagues proud of the company that you're applying for a job at?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, I think what's interesting is sometimes actually people will be stumped with that question. And you can also think of it as little in reverse as you as a candidate getting that question, why do you want to work here? Actually, you asking that question of the person interviewing you in a different way. And so just you might sometimes be like I want to work here because I need a job and I need a paycheck or something like that. Hearing how they answer is, is it just some pat answer of like, oh, this is what I should say, or are they actually excited and enthusiastic with their answer? And once again, that's something I got from every person that I talk to in my current place is the enthusiasm of making a change in the insurance industry, which I must admit, when I first heard about this job, I was like, Ugh, so boring insurance. But then I actually asked that question of every person and the answers I got were so eye-opening that I was like, I want to work here too.
Brendan Jarvis:
How do you know whether someone's just giving you a bullshit answer?
Julia DeBari:
So I feel like that can be a little hard sometimes, depending on your skill at reading people. And it's funny, I'm in UX design and I'm a sensitive person, but I must admit, sometimes I struggle with reading people. I don't know if I want to use our trending thing of sometimes I think we all have some, I don't know, not neurological, but some kind of neurodiversity traits or something. It's a spectrum. So I definitely miss some cues myself sometimes. But in general, looking at it from, if everything was perfect is you want to look at their enthusiasm and that they're not just delivering this straight, no emotion kind of answer. And once again, just I think the thread to this entire conversation as if it seemed like it was just this pat answer, ask for details of, can you give me an example of the last time someone gave you kudos at work or something? Or the last time you were excited to work on a project and what that was like, or something like that.
Brendan Jarvis:
So whatever they say to you find a bridge with that to then dig deeper into the substance of what they've communicated.
Julia DeBari:
Yes, exactly.
Brendan Jarvis:
Now I promise we'd come back to hiring junior designers, and I want to do that, but I want to ask one more question while we're on this particular track, which is you've suggested that when people finish their interview, and I'll quote you again, now, you've suggested that they say something to the effect of, I enjoyed our conversation and learning more about you and the team after getting to know me a little better. What reservations do you have about me being a fit for this role? So why are you inviting people to invite doubt into their fit into this hiring conversation?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, it's actually so that if they have doubts and they say that you can address them, then it's just like you were saying about feedback from Christina earlier, it's the same thing that immediacy, instead of them going back and talking with their colleagues like, oh, I didn't think Julia was a good fit because of X, Y, and Z. If that person says it directly, you can be like, oh, well let me tell you blah, blah, blah. And I use that question a lot myself. And I must admit, I have had sometimes where the interviewer will just be like, oh, I can't really discuss that with you. And
Brendan Jarvis:
Oh really? Yeah,
Julia DeBari:
You
Brendan Jarvis:
Can't discuss me with me. Yeah. Okay. What did you say?
Julia DeBari:
I was like, I thought we were having a conversation if I was a good fit for this role. And they're like, well, I'm not allowed to have my own opinions until I discuss it with a team. I don't know if I'm wording that quite right, but they thought it would be a bias or something. And I was like, okay
Brendan Jarvis:
Did you get the job?
Julia DeBari:
I did not. But I don't know. Maybe that was a good thing.
Brendan Jarvis:
Probably. Probably in that case. Yeah, it's interesting. There's a book called Never Split the Difference by Chris Boss. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Are you familiar with it? And he's for people that, dunno, he's a former FBI terrorist and hostage negotiator. So he's been in some fairly intense conversations with people that don't necessarily want to do what he wants them to do. And he talks about the difference that sometimes people will push off onto others in terms of decision making ability that, oh no, I can't answer that question because I've got to go back and discuss it with my team. Which can, and again, read the book for yourself and make your own mind up people, but can suggest that they are actually the people that have the power to make that decision and they've already made it. They just don't want to tell you that they've made that decision. It's a way of them saving face and not having to address the issue. Yeah,
Julia DeBari:
And it's funny you mentioned that, cause I was actually going to mention that book earlier when we were talking about negotiating salary and stuff. Like I said, honestly, I suck at it for myself, but I do try and give really good or I try to give good advice on that. But that advice is coming from that book because I read that book and that's where my advice is coming from.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, really worth having a look. In fact, there are some videos of Chris I think doing role plays with people in particular on salary negotiations, which are just useful information. Another data point, not necessarily going to work for everyone, but it's something worthwhile checking out. Now junior designers, let's talk about hiring junior designers. So that is something that there's a fairly common funny but not funny train of thought in the industry about how entry level designers are often required to have at least a couple of years experience before we'll even let them in the door. So they already have to have two years of experience before we'll actually consider them for a job. So when you were recruiting, and you mentioned this earlier you mentioned that you had a junior design position come up and you were really excited about it. But I understand there was a flip side to that. And that flip side was that you had over 500 applications for the specific position and that came in over 24 hours. So that's a very short space of time, a lot of people to assess and work out whether or not you're going to shortlist them. And you also said about this, and I'll just quote the very end the impact here. You said design mostly wants senior people. It's frustrating. Why do hiring managers mostly want seniors?
Julia DeBari:
And it really became crystal clear to me this past couple weeks at my current job, and that was that LinkedIn post you were referring to earlier is I don't have time to even think about it. I can't have someone asking me questions and I hate that so much so against my nature. And it's just I feel like it's honestly another way of saying I'm too busy. I shouldn't be managing a team. I just need someone to come in and do the work. Some companies will be like, okay, then let's just hire contractors where other people are like, no, we need to have full-time team members so they can be a part of our culture and stuff. But it's the same idea of we don't have time is usually the biggest thing. We're on fire. Someone needs to just come in and do the work and I don't have time to explain things.
And I hate that so much. I really do. You should always make time. But I am in this situation right now where I am drowning. And what's funny though, as I talk about this is it's funny if I was left to my own devices and someone's like, you need to do these things, I'd be like, okay. But the reason in my case why I'm drowning is I came up with a list of priorities of what I think I need to focus on, but then I'm hearing different things from my boss and then the CEO and then other people. They're all conflicting. And so if I could just go, these are my priorities, this what I'm working on, I could deal with it and I'd be fine hiring not a senior person, but because of all the conflicting priorities and I haven't been able to get alignment yet. I think it's possible
Brendan Jarvis:
You need to buy to buy them radical focus, which is Christi, Christina Vodka's book and just subtly slip it underneath their door. And not that you're working in a physical office, so that might be a bit difficult. Maybe you can send them at via ebook.
Julia DeBari:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny because I've read that book too. And so that's why I also get frustrated because honestly, sometimes reading and knowing this stuff, I feel like as a UX designer makes my job harder because I've read all these books of the way things should be. And I feel like going back to junior designers, bootcamps teach this a lot too, is the way things should be. But real life is absolutely nothing like this at all. These books are awesome, but it's not like What? It's amazing. Yeah, it's that classic, that drawing we've all seen like, oh, there's the double diamond process and then it's just a squiggle for the actual process. Yeah. So honestly, senior designers, I think it's just someone saying, I don't have time to mentor.
Brendan Jarvis:
So if we continue to do this, if we continue to weight our teams towards seniors, people like us, where does this road lead us to as a field?
Julia DeBari:
I think utter disaster honestly. But to get more detailed is God, I feel like I could say so many things. I guess also just thinking, one thing I've noticed interesting is because I have been in the industry a long time and a lot of my ideas come from when I started in the industry and how things were then, but I really try and make an effort to be like, okay, there's new trends or new things and stuff like that. But if we're all seniors, I think all it's a human condition. We have a bias to our original learnings, and if it's all seniors, we're going to get stuck and we're not going to innovate and grow. We need new people to grow and innovate. And not seniors can't come up with fresher, innovative ideas, but it's just like this unbiased thinking or this outside thinking.
This is one comment I use a lot at work is like I'm coming in with a fresh perspective. I say this a lot in meetings. A lot of you have been here for over a year or two years. This is the perspective of someone who's been here a month and this is what I see. And I think it's the same in our industry. If we don't have new people coming in, we're going to stagnate. And my most hated phrase is like, well, that's the way we've always done things. I hate that at a company. I hate that, hate that, hate that. I will leave in a second if I hear that phrase,
Brendan Jarvis:
What does that say to you? If you hear that, what are they actually saying?
Julia DeBari:
That we're not open to change or to trying something different?
Brendan Jarvis:
I wonder if what I'm going to ask you next, I wonder if this is related in some way to an unwillingness to change or to the present situation that hiring managers find themselves in terms of being really short on time because of the conditions that they're operating in. And this is from a conversation that you had with Laura Klein, who's also been a previous guest on Brave U X on her new podcast, which is called What Is Wrong With Hiring? And one of the things you said, there's a bit of a disconnect between what the hiring managers want and what is out there in terms of skills. What is the nature of that disconnect and where has it come from?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah, I think part of it is that the hiring managers are like, oh, I want these hard skills or something like that. And boot camps are teaching them in a very recipe type of format. But then when they go to interview someone, and I saw this a lot too, is I'm hearing answers in a very, well, I would do this, but then if I give you some kind of scenario that doesn't fit into that, you can't respond. And so it's a two-way street where the hiring managers are like, I need you to think on your feet or deal with ambiguity, which we see in every job description. But then the people coming in are like, I don't know what that you want me to say. The boot camp didn't tell me what to say or what to do in this situation.
Brendan Jarvis:
Ooh, that's chilling, that's sending chills down my spine. So what you're saying is that candidates that you're seeing don't have the critical thinking skills to deal with the questions that are being posed to them and come up with an answer that isn't part of some sort of script or conditioning that they've experienced.
Julia DeBari:
And I feel really bad because sort of going back to our earlier thing about everything might be negotiable to a certain extent at a job. When you see those jobs that say like, oh, two years or five years experience or whatever, that's negotiable too. If you have really good answers or you're able to get that interview, you can talk your way past that requirement or show your skills beyond that requirement. And this is where I hate using that term, but those soft skills or dealing with ambiguity and all those buzzwords we throw out will get you past that stupid two five year requirement.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, I mean, if you've been doing design badly for five years, you're still a bad designer. Exactly. I understand. I understand why there is a time, time ranges put onto particular roles. I understand that it's not as clear cut as that, and that one of the folies of my youth was thinking I knew more than I actually did. And you can only learn that that's not the case in retrospect. So there's all of that going on and wrapped up here. But one of the things that you've also talked about in terms of hiring managers wanting to see from candidates, which perhaps is quite difficult for juniors, maybe getting into the critical thinking aspect we were touching on earlier is you've said that often hiring managers, talking in terms of deliverables and tools and that managers also want to see on top of deliverables and tools, the outcomes that have been achieved as a result of the work that's being done.
So these are almost like there's a very functional requirement for the role. Have you got experience with Figma or whatever it is, which is hot right now. And then on the other hand, there's this, Hey you need to be able to tell a narrative of how your work actually helped your team and your company achieve its goals. And this is something that I can understand why having hired people in the past, you want to understand how their contribution has actually made a difference. But given the often complex and collaborative nature of our work, we're working in often large teams with heaps of different expertise in the room to overcome serious and significant and complex challenges, how can we most effectively and truthfully demonstrate that impact through the stories we tell about the outcomes?
Julia DeBari:
Yeah. I think one thing to keep in mind, and I was actually just telling this to, I don't know, they're not a mentee. I don't know how, I don't want to give too much away, but they're in a unique situation where they've been working at a company, a big company for over five years, but not a single thing they've worked on has shipped. So I know we hear this a lot with juniors, show your impact or I want to know how that improved things. And so keep in mind that that impact or those outcomes you're just talking about doesn't always have to be like, oh, it made X amount of money or whatever. You can also talk about the impact of how you collaborated and now the team is a better functioning team. It doesn't have to be this thing you designed and then shipped, made changes.
It's like, how did other things, you did team function or evangelizing UX or something. And I'm a big fan for juniors, your portfolio doesn't always have to be UX case studies especially. I'm getting a lot more people lately who are coming from medical fields and wanting to be in UX like, oh my God, you must have so many amazing stories. Think about it more telling a story of how you solved a problem in your previous career. Don't feel stuck that you have to do this UX case study that you see all over the internet. That's the other thing, oh my God, portfolios are looking so cookie cutter. And I literally met with someone a couple months ago now, and so it's so bad now that I can look at someone's portfolio and be like, oh, you went to this bootcamp, you went to that bootcamp.
I can tell immediately where you went based on your case studies without even knowing anything about you, but this person's portfolio. I looked at one case study and I was like, oh, they went to X bootcamp. And then I looked another one. I'm like, oh, wait, maybe they went to a different bootcamp. And then I went to the third one and I was like, oh, I'm confused. And we were reviewing their portfolio together online. So I asked, and they're like, oh, I didn't go to a bootcamp. I just copied the way case studies were laid out on what I saw on the internet. But so someone who self studied, copied the style of things they saw on the internet were all bootcamp portfolios. And then I literally thought they went to three different boot camps. Think about that for how we're seeing [laugh] recipes
Brendan Jarvis:
And that approach communicates something about that person's potential approach to the work when they get in there. I feel like I'm going to use the word brave here. I feel like there's room and there's appetite for people when they're going for jobs to be a little brave and draw on previous career experiences if it's been outside of UX like you were saying, and bridge those into how that actually positions them to be suitable for whatever the role is that they are going for. There's these areas of differentiation or things that make you special that are unique to you that you can introduce into your portfolio in such a way that it can connect with a human on the other side. That's probably a bit tired of sifting through 400 of the same samey kind of looking things. Now I just want to go into portfolios just a little bit more before we bring our conversation down to a close.
And while you were talking to Laura, you also mentioned something that I heard and I thought, wow, this is something that we need to amplify here. And that was, you said, people who don't have a portfolio or if it's password protected are at the bottom of the recruiter's list. So there's heaps in there, and please take this where you need to. But I also wanted to follow up on that and say that after you said that, Laura suggested that requirement for a portfolio is quite tough on people who aren't visual designers, researchers, for example or UXs that don't do visual design or where previous workers under NDA or has been a team effort. And it's hard to separate exactly whose contribution resulted in a specific outcome. So is it unfair of hiring managers to want to see evidence of previous work in a portfolio format?
Julia DeBari:
I was unfair. I mean, I guess I want to see something, but once again, taking it back to when we were talking about earlier, I think people are getting scared. It has to be this typical UX portfolio. I actually saw someone, this was years ago, and I that would be more happen. They did their portfolio, sorry, on Medium it was just a collection of articles. Let's say you are coming from another career and you're like, well, I don't know all the UX deliverables with UX process. I don't just show me your thought process and then diagrams help. Yeah, maybe you're not a visual designer, that's fine. I want to see, I thought step A, step B, step C. And then I thought this scenario and I thought, what if this happened? I want to see that critical thinking, and you can make a sketch on a napkin for that. That's what I want to see. I don't care about pretty flashy colors, and that's for me, but I know not all hiring managers are like that. But when I say portfolio, that's what I mean is show me your thought process.
Brendan Jarvis:
That's a really key distinction. And just a reminder, if you've got your portfolio or if you don't have a portfolio, get something that you've called portfolio. It doesn't have to look like a cookie cutter one. And if it's password protected, take the password off. You don't want to be at the bottom of those recruiters lists if they can't actually get to and have a look at what it is that you've done previously. So Julia, when it comes to recruitment, you've seen, you spent your six months peeking behind that curtain, working in the recruitment trenches and really trying to understand what's actually going on there. As my final question for you, what's your biggest insight into recruitment's dark hearts, the one that you feel is important for designers to know when they're applying for jobs, and what do they need to understand or do that's going to give them the best chance of landing their dream job?
Julia DeBari:
I guess I actually have two answers to that. The first part is, I know you've probably heard this, but the whole recruiting process itself is a total mess. I mean, that's sort of thing everywhere does it a different way. There's no standardizations. I mean, we have more standardizations in UX than they do in the recruiting industry. That's how all over the place it is. And then there's so many different tools and which we also have. But then one thing also, I saw a lot and getting a job as a recruiter is like, I'm sorry, it's a total cakewalk. Like, oh my God, I couldn't believe how easy it was [laugh]. It was a little scary. And I still, even though I was there, they hired some of the people. They hired people right out of school. I felt like they'd almost hire almost anyone. So just sort of flip that around as this person may have zero understanding of what you do or anything at all. They have maybe no standardized process. They know nothing. And so I know you've probably heard this as an applicant a million times, but really making it easy as possible for them.
Brendan Jarvis:
Slow speak, slowly, use plain English.
Julia DeBari:
Yes. Yes. And that's our thing is they literally have a checklist of are there wire frames? Are there mockups? But they don't. They're just saying there not checking things off a list or something like that when they're reviewing your portfolio. But if you can just sort of explain, but not take too long of what you did and what you were thinking, that helps a lot too.
Brendan Jarvis:
Really good advice, and thank you, Julia. This has been a really useful and practical conversation. I feel there's heaps of things in here for people to take away to apply and also to have a think about. Thank you for being so generous with your stories and insights today.
Julia DeBari:
Thank you so much for having me, Brendan. I'm really, really honored to be on this podcast. And little shout out to Brendan. I've done quite a, I don't know, quite a few. I've done a lot of different podcasts. I dunno if I can say that quite. But anyway, Brendan's been my most favorite podcast to be on. He's so organized, so prepared, so engaging, asked really good questions. I mean, if anyone's like, I'm not sure if I should do a podcast, check out Brendan and he'll give you an amazing experience.
Brendan Jarvis:
Oh, you're very kind and it's definitely been my pleasure. Thank you, Julia. And Julia, if people want to connect with you and find out a bit more about what you're up to, what's the best way for them to do that
Julia DeBari:
On LinkedIn? More than I should be, but please send me, if you send me a connection request, please include a note. I do not accept connection requests without a note.
Brendan Jarvis:
Very important. Very important. Thanks, Julia. And to everyone who's tuned in, it's been great having you here with us as well. Everything that we've covered will be in the show notes, including where you can find Julia and detailed chapter notes. Check those out on YouTube. They've actually got time codes where you can hop to various points in the conversation.
If you enjoyed the show and you want to hear more conversations like this, great conversations with world-class leaders in UX, design and product management. Then don't forget to leave a review on the podcast if that's possible, wherever or however you are listening to this, subscribe so it turns up to you regularly. And tell someone else. If there's someone that you felt listening to this today that would get value from these types of conversations, then please pass the podcast along to them.
If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn to search for Brendan Jarvis, and I'll pop up. There's also a link to my profile. If that doesn't happen or you're having trouble finding me, there's a link to my profile at the bottom of the show notes. Or you can head on over to my website, which is thespaceinbetween.co.nz. That's thespaceinbetween.co.nz. And until next time, keep being brave.

Julia DeBari

The Insider's Guide to Design Recruitment

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