Ash Ivory

Episode 129
Brave UX

Motorcycle Metaphors for Navigating Work/Life

In this episode of Brave UX, Ash Ivory shares what they’ve learned from burning out as a leader 🥵, why gender and orientation can’t be left at home 🧑, and why inclusive design matters 🏳️‍🌈.

Highlights include:

Why is it important not to seperate personal from professional values?
What work experiences made you feel you had to keep your identity at home?
Why is it important to get comfortable with saying ‘no’ in a product role?
How can not celebrating wins negatively impact a product team?
Do people need to take self-responsibility for avoiding burnout?

March 5, 202401:14:12

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Who is Ash Ivory?

Ash is the newly minted Chief Product Officer at Ivory Common 🚀, after recently wrapping up their role as Head of Product at Askable, a global participant recruitment and research platform that empowers organisations to make better product decisions.

In their role as Head of Product, Ash led the product vision as well as the people responsible for delivering on that vision 💪, including product managers, designers, engineers, and researchers.

Before joining Askable, Ash was the Head of Product at Outfit, an automation platform for large-scale brand management and production ⚙️, and which was recently acquired by Smartsheet for an undisclosed sum.

When Ash is not enabling great product to be built, they can be found coaching others in the office in the art of brewing great coffee, or riding their motorcycle in an act of active meditation 🏍️.

Transcript

Ash Ivory:
If you can have a supportive environment that's not a crazy echo chamber and you're keeping fairly levelheaded and making good trade-offs, that will put you in good stead to deal with any type of situation. Right?
Brendan Jarvis:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Brave UX. I'm Brendan Jarvis, managing founder of The Space InBetween, the behavior-based UX research partner for enterprise leaders who need an independent perspective to align hearts and minds, and also the home of New Zealand's first and only world-class, human-centered research and innovation lab. You can find out more about what we do at thespaceinbetween.co.nz.
Here on Brave UX though, it's my job to help you to keep on top of the latest thinking and important issues affecting the fields of UX research, product management, and design. I do that by unpacking the stories, learnings, and expert advice of a diverse range of world-class leaders in those fields.
My guest today is Ash Ivory. Ash is the head of product at Askable, a global participant recruitment and research platform that empowers organisations to make better product decisions in their role.
As head of product, Ash leads the product vision as well as the people responsible for delivering on that vision, including product managers, designers, engineers, and researchers.
Before joining Askable Ash was the head of product at Outfit, an automation platform for large scale brand management and production, and which was recently acquired by Smartsheet for an undisclosed sum.
When Ash is not enabling great product to be built, they can be found coaching others in the office, in the art of brewing great coffee or riding their motorcycle in an active active meditation. More on that soon.
A regular voice in the product community, Ash has been a guest speaker at Product Tanks and was recently featured on the NewyTechPeople podcast and now they're here with me for this conversation on Brave UX. Ash, hello and a very warm welcome to the show.
Ash Ivory:
Hey, Brendan, thanks for having me on.
Brendan Jarvis:
Oh, it's my pleasure. My pleasure. It was wonderful seeing you all the way back in February. Who would've thought this year at UX NZ really enjoyed catching up and meeting you in person, and since then I've had the, I'd say it was the pleasure of learning a little bit more about you listening to some things that you've said before, that things that you've been written up on in the press and one of my sources tells me that there might be a bit of a cross stitching competition going on in your home between you and your wife. Is this true?
Ash Ivory:
Look, if it was a competition, Brendan, I am definitely losing, but I do love to cross stitch. My first cross stitch was a little golden girls cross stitch and it said, thank you for being a friend, which was a bit cute.
Brendan Jarvis:
Oh, that's really cute.
Ash Ivory:
Yep. It was really cute and my wife jumped in on the hobby and has since just absolutely dominated me completely. So if it's a competition, I'm very much losing.
Brendan Jarvis:
Well, it's good of you to admit that. It's really good of you to admit that it's brave. It's brave. We're up to our first brave start for the show. You mentioned the Golden Girls, and I understand that TV characters and movie characters are a bit of a thing for you in the whole cross stitching world that you've been entering here. What is the last little pixel person that you've made? Oh
Ash Ivory:
Goodness, now you are asking me. The last one would have been a Harry Potter, a little Harry Potter sort of character feature, so onto Hermione. And the one I did before that was a little mean girls one as well, which is all a bit
Brendan Jarvis:
Cute. I love it, I love it. I wish I had some skills with needle and thread, but I do not. I'm more of a keyboard warrior I must say. I want to talk to you about something else that I understand, which is kind of craft-based that you're into. In fact, there's probably more than I know about, so feel free to fill me in here. But this is in particular about customising motorbikes and that to me, when I was watching some videos of you talking about this in the past, it's a very exotic, in my mind, it's like a very exotic scene or community to be part of. How did you get involved in this?
Ash Ivory:
Oh goodness, that's a very big question. So we might have to rewind quite a way back to where I was born. Actually, let's do it. My dad always into quite extreme activities, so he was a skydiver for many years of my childhood as well. He was a tandem master and yeah, we even relocated for one of his jobs for a while, but he also really loved motorbikes. I very much remember him having a little camper trailer that he could sort of strap to the back of his K 100 as well and go and do some jumps on the weekend. So all these wild hobbies sort of combining. But I grew up on the back of that bike and loved it, got very comfortable very quickly. So one of the stories my mom used to tell me about me being on the back of the bike is that I'd sort of hang on to dad and a couple of minutes into the journey I'd be asleep and he'd sort of have to hang on to me as we would be riding home.
But yeah, started sort of on the back of dad's bike and then a little bit later on grew up on properties and a lot of my friends had large banana farms and things like that, so always riding little peewee fifties and bits and pieces around and just loved it, loved getting my hands dirty and was a bit of a bush kid growing up really. And fast forward many, many years. My mom actually fell sick with cancer, which was a bit of a shock. And after she passed away, getting on the bike with dad again was a really special moment and it allowed us to connect without having to discuss too much. At that time, I was quite young. I was only 18 and we were still very different people, I think dad and I and over such a big event like that, getting on the bike and sort of riding together and so obviously on separate bikes as I was a little bit older, but getting on the bike and riding together was incredibly cathartic and I think it helped him a lot, but it also opened up a completely different world for me.
Again, sort of that hobby dropped away a little bit. I didn't have a bike with me when I moved to Brizi, and so I went through quite a large breakup and decided, all right, now it's time to do a few things that I've really wanted to carry through in life. So bought a brand new little TU two 50 x for anyone that's into motorbikes, you'll know that that's a lovely little bike to learn to ride on. It's also super easy to customise and starting. You can start to dream up different ways to strip it back and make it your own. And yeah, that was the bike that took me into that whole world of customization and this incredible community of people that really don't care what you ride or what you do outside of motorbikes. They just want to talk about riding and they want to know why you ride and they really just want to wrangle you into a ride so they can have more riding partners as well. So yeah, it is an incredible community and it's sort of I guess weaved in and out of my life and it's very much a part of my daily routine now as well.
Brendan Jarvis:
Is it still something that you share in common and that brings you closer to your dad?
Ash Ivory:
Absolutely, yes. So one of the bigger commitments I guess I've got in motorcycling is I'm the host of the Brisbane Distinguished Gentleman's Ride, and this year was, would've been my third year hosting on my own. We have over 600 bikes that join us for the day, and it's a bit of a logistical nightmare, but it's absolutely a labour of love getting 600 very loud sometimes unreliable bikes through the heart of Brisbane City. And this year dad was able to come down and we shared. Yeah, it was a pretty incredible moment I think for both of us to one be together on that day, be able to ride together and also reflect on where our journey started and where the connection really formed over bikes as well.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah. You mentioned when you were describing in the wake of your mum passing that the bike brought you closer together without having to say much, I believe is what you said there or thereabouts has since the passage of time has passed and with this event that you just described this year, was it, or was it last year?
Ash Ivory:
Yeah, this year doing a DGR together? Yeah.
Brendan Jarvis:
Is that something that you were able to open up and have more direct conversation with your dad about life and about the things that have gone on in the interim?
Ash Ivory:
Yeah, absolutely. I think life ebbs and flows in terms of how much you're opening up and to who. And I think as I've become more of my own person and become more of a, I guess a little bit of a different person to dad, I think I was absolutely a chip off the old block, so to speak when I was younger with dad and we tended to, we were always at odds, I think, because we were so similar. But I think as I've grown up and he has observed me in many different situations and whether that's from being on the bike and now seeing me as a confident rider or seeing the career I've chosen or how I continue to deal with different things, I think the bike has just been a bit of a way to start to open those conversations up. But we certainly don't rely on bikes anymore, which is quite nice.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, it sounds like it's been one of those positive experiences and something that's been a long staying part of your relationship. And I understand that your dad, I'm not sure when this was, but I was listening to an interview that you gave about DGR on the Bendix Motos video series, the Ride, and you mentioned a piece of advice there that your dad gave you about riding a bike. What was that piece of advice that's always stuck with you?
Ash Ivory:
Well, he's given me a few over the years, but the main one is that you shouldn't trust indicators. And I think that is a really beautiful metaphor for I guess people's intentions and not in a pessimistic way, but I think you have to really understand where people are coming from and where they're trying to get to regardless of what they're signalling. And the one thing that dad always said is don't look at the indicator. Look at the wheels. The wheels tell you where they're going. And I think there's a lot to unpack there if we really wanted to digress into a whole other topic. But yeah, I think it is a beautiful metaphor of knowing someone's intentions or truly where they want to go. That helps me a lot as a leader today. But yeah, it was a brilliant piece of advice. You can't really take responsibility for other people on the road, but you can take responsibility for yourself and your own perceptions and your own choices. And so that has stuck with me and touch wood, I still haven't had any major accidents, so hopefully that attitude of that extreme responsibility carries me through. Well,
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, it's a very, listening to you frame that it's a very stoic type framing of what you can and can't control, particularly on the bike, but I'd be keen to explore the career implications this saying may have had for you as well, but quite literally coming back to riding the bike on the road, is this piece of advice something that has saved your life?
Ash Ivory:
Oh, absolutely, absolutely numerous times. I think not just indicators, but understanding where people's minds are and even pattern recognition. I think it's something that serves us quite well and can be at times also a bit limiting, so you've really got to be aware of how quickly your mind's working. But on the bike, it's absolutely one of those things that I think can make the difference between getting cleaned up by a car and just casually changing lanes and knowing that there's a way around the situation. So yes, you are right. B, it's absolutely saved my life and I think it will continue to in years to come in different rides.
Brendan Jarvis:
We'll move on from motorbike soon, but I did want to ask you about one other thing to do with riding that you've said, and I'll quote you now. You've said I've always, I guess been known for being pretty particular with things, whether it's clothing or anything that I'm looking at. I really like to understand where it's coming from and why it exists. So the parts on the bike are pretty much the same. What's your earliest memory of being particular about something?
Ash Ivory:
Oh my goodness, that is an incredible question. When I was younger, my mom used to take me to material shops, so she was a sewer seamstress if you want to be fancy, but she made everything. And one of my sort of little rewards if I was good in the shop was I got to choose a type of pattern, t-shirt material, and she would make me a shirt, and I always remember it taking the longest, so she would give me a bit of a heads up, and I'm sure it was absolutely a reward strategy as well, but sometimes choosing the pattern that I wanted would take longer than mom going through and getting all of her pieces for whatever she was creating. So that's a very early memory of being very particular about certain things, but there's other examples as well. But yes, that one sticks with me. I can still kind of remember I had this shirt I just adored and it was black, it had some crazy sort of neon art on it, very, very nineties, perfect for the time, and I wore that shirt so much. I think it faded to white that sort of the black print faded to white and I just adored it. I'm not sure if we ever had any additional material, but I loved it so much because I was just so stoked with the pattern.
Brendan Jarvis:
Maybe you can track down the pattern and have another one made because the nineties fashion is certainly back on the streets of Auckland.
Ash Ivory:
Yeah, I know it's the same. I have a 16-year-old daughter and the things that she's wearing now, I'm kind of kicking myself that I didn't hoard a bunch of things from my teenage years because they would've been perfect.
Brendan Jarvis:
Hey, you talked there about your mum being a sewer or a seamstress and patterns and the art of making clothes, and maybe this is my own projection here, but it strikes me that in order to do that well, you need to be quite particular as well about the details.
Ash Ivory:
Absolutely. Observing mom growing up was quite interesting because I think there were many things in her life that she absolutely had very, very organised and to a tee, and then there were other things that were just wildly messy or out of control, and I think we all have things like that in life. But when it came to mom's process of planning a pattern, I just absolutely adored sitting. I kind had this high bench near her dress making sort of area, and I would sit there for hours and watch her pin patterns and watch her cut lines, and I loved watching the process and she was so gifted. It's a shame that she wasn't able to, I guess be around people that could sort of bring more of that talent out, but she could make everything from formal gowns, wedding gowns, all the way through to patching parachutes when dad was skydiving and also making jumpsuits.
She was so versatile, but I think her real passion laid in couture, and it's a little bit of a shame that she didn't get to explore that as far as I think she could have taken it. But yeah, absolutely just obsessive about her process and the way she put things together. I think I grew to appreciate what it means to have a ritual, and she was very ritualistic as well. She would get up at the same time every day. She had time in the morning on her own and really structured her day that way. So I loved that side of her, and I think I probably picked up a lot of my obsessions from that as
Brendan Jarvis:
Well. And obsessions particularly around attention to detail, they have a darker side or they can have a darker expression to them. And I wanted to pick up on something that you've talked about openly before, which is period in your career a few years ago where perhaps your tendency to push yourself and perhaps be a little self-critical took you to a place that you didn't expect. And I just want to give people some context here because this is quite a common, or at least to me, it feels like a common situation for people who work in tech to find themselves in particularly if they're wide in a similar way to you, Ash. And this is an industry that can reward very much reward, that type of grinding type behaviour, particularly when it comes to achieving a goal at work. Now, you've previously said about your childhood actually.
So sort of tying this back to your conversation there about your mum, but maybe a little bit older here, you said, I remember as a kid I used to play soccer at quite a competitive level and I'd sort of come off the field and my coach would say to me, oh, you did this great ash, and that was a good pass and you defended well there, and I had a list of things that I knew I did wrong. So how much, if any at all, did your dissent into burnout when you were working at Outfit? How much of that was related to this self-critical narrative or to this being particular on the details?
Ash Ivory:
It's a good question because I think it's quite layered. I'm not sure if initially it came down to, yeah, I think initially it wasn't through a self-critical lens. I was excited to be learning new skills and my journey at Outfit absolutely started at a point where I was in front of customers and just working it out meeting by meeting. And that took me through to head of product, which at the time I didn't really understand my career trajectory. I was just tackling the next challenge in front of me that needed tackling for the company. But looking back now, I can understand how rapid that kind of journey was, and I think that is probably the other part of my nature that can allow me to overload myself a little bit too much. But you are right, the obsessive nature to want to know all the details like you were talking about with the motorcycle parts and all of those things start to converge.
And I think as I've reflected on Outfit and where I am now today, it's really important for me to keep things in balance and to keep a check on my energy levels myself, my feelings, I can kind of put those to the side a little bit. And I think that's where that critic comes out of being a little bit more driven or observant than the average person, and therefore you start to get ahead of other people around you. So that example of me coming off the field that happened every game and my coach really, it actually caused I think some concern for him later on that he could never quite get me in a positive mind set if I was really fixated on something that I'd messed up. So over the years, I've learned to try and let go of those things that I can't change.
My mom, though we weren't overly religious, there were a few really important, I guess, morals for us as a family, and one of them was that serenity prayer that is quite common and obviously changing the things that you can change and accepting the things that you can't. So I remember we used to have a little magnet on the fridge that had it on there along with a couple of other quite funny ones as well. But I think knowing how intense it can get when you let yourself sort of hang onto things in the past, I've learned to take that obsession and try and turn it into a way to do things differently or experiment or push myself forward, but also understand where I am in terms of energy motivation and also other people around me because I think I have the tendency to be a little bit overwhelming if I'm extremely excited or if I'm really, really driven down a certain path, it can be overwhelming for others. So trying to take all those things into consideration now and have a little bit more of a pulse on how I'm feeling, whether I'm taking things a little bit too seriously or a little bit too far. Yeah, it's definitely still there. I'm just trying to harness it in the right ways. Now,
Brendan Jarvis:
Previously when you've talked about this, you've indicated that you weren't really aware that you were burning out at the time. What was it that eventually awakened to you to what was actually happening?
Ash Ivory:
I'm genuinely the type of person that if I'm in, I'm in, I'm all the way in. And so I at times take that as a quite extreme commitment, and I think I have that ability to kind of block out some of the struggles or the pain or you sort of want to push through I guess that mental barrier. And I think if you talk to anyone who's had sport in life and that value sport or team or you sort of touched on it being at any level that's competitive, I think there's a natural tendency to work at that override because there is that you know yourself that sometimes it's a battle of will or your mindset and you can push your body a little bit further. And if you're in a final and it's down to a few minutes and you've really got to put it in, it can be the difference between coming out on top and not feeling like you did your best.
And so I think perhaps there was a point where I realised I was overriding every single sane voice in my head as well as people around me for the wrong reasons as well. I think that's a bit of a critical thing to define with burnout is that yes, there's times in life where you have to push and there's times where you need to take that break, but if you are pushing for the wrong reasons and it's not adding up, I think that's where you kind of get the sense of, hang on, this doesn't feel like, I don't feel like I'm having any reward or any real trade off for the energy. It just feels like a bit of a bottomless pit that I can't really see the end of. So to me, that was the moment where things started to feel quite overwhelming. I really couldn't get out of bed and I was struggling to have conversations that would normally be a breeze and I wasn't caring about things that I normally would. And going back to some of your earlier points, you kind of know when you're a bit of an obsessive person and someone who loves detail and you pride yourself on those things when they start to slip, then I think something's off kilter.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, 100%. 100%. Listening to you describe this, the other part of this story that I felt was really important for people to hear, particularly if they are this way inclined or maybe they're starting to feel like they might be heading this way, is not just the surprise that you felt when you realised that you were burned out. You've also said that you were surprised, and I'll paraphrase you here, just how long it took for you to reset to recover confidence and being a leader and to sort of get back up on your feet. So I was curious about this, just how long did it take to get back to that space where you were energised and excited about things and how did you get back to that place?
Ash Ivory:
I would say it took me a good eight months if not a year, to really, really feel like I was myself again, I had confidence in myself and just the processes or ways of thinking that came quite to me before that I felt a lot of hesitation around. And so it was when I had my first annual review at Askable, I was sort of reflecting on this with my CEO John and I remember saying to him, I did not realise how long it was going to take me to kind of show up again the way that I wanted to. I think the way that I knew is that I was just excited about product work again, and I was enjoying whiteboarding and I wasn't sort of have that sense of dread when we would get in a room and discuss priorities. So I think paying attention to things that were triggering in the past as well and not feeling that anymore started to signal to me that maybe I was working through it, maybe some of the fog was starting to clear and I could kind of feel like I could run at something again and be confident in calls that I would make or putting my ideas forward.
I just felt like myself a little bit more again. But yeah, the time that eight to 12 months just completely shocked me when you think about it in the scheme of your life. Sure, a year out of it when I'm looking back I'm sure will feel quite minimal, but at the time I thought a week or two, a bit of a break, I'll hit reset and I'll be back into it again. And it just wasn't the case. It took a whole lot of really deliberate practise to get to a point where I felt confident again in my own skills.
Brendan Jarvis:
And I just want to make sure that people understand that this wasn't the way that you felt about Outfit the entire time that you were there. You touched on earlier how when you started, I think you were in a brand and marketing consultant type capacity, and you mentioned Bruce, who's the founder, he said to you a couple of days in or thereabouts that, well, if you want to consult on this, you're going to have to get out there and sell and find us some clients. And you talked about being thrown into that sales role a little earlier, and you've also said a few things about Bruce in the past and what it was like to work with Bruce, and I just wanted to paint that picture for people here now as well. And I'll quote you, you've said Bruce has been my biggest advocate, mentor and friend.
He took a chance on me when others wouldn't and continues to see the potential that on dimmer days I struggle to see he is always right by my side. Now I am not sure where to go from here because I've only heard the story of what you've just told there around the burnout. And I've heard you say things in the past and this is while you were still at Outfit about what it was like working with a founder and clearly quite hard. So I'm curious to understand where, if any, there is a disconnect between what I've just quoted you saying about what it was like working with Bruce and then what ended up being the eventual outcome of your time at Outfit?
Ash Ivory:
It's a good question B, because I think a lot of the time when you hear about these stories, especially if it's a really significant first role or professional relationship, you want to hear that it's smooth sailing, that basically Bruce is my biggest advocate and still is today. And I would say he absolutely is. But just like I think any relationship, whether it's romantic or professional or a friendship, you go through seasons and as people, you go through changes, and this really taught me the value of radical candour and being able to speak up and speak authentically about your own opinion or where you may not disagree, where you may not agree with someone even if you deeply respect them. And I think I've come to understand that that is one of the more respectful and deeply positive things you can do for any relationship, and that is to speak up and speak honestly, but have those conversations with care.
And I think through that process I prioritised not just Bruce but the entire company over some of my own morals and my beliefs in terms of software and those important, I think things that have become very foundational to the principles that I've been developing over the years as a leader. There are really significant events that produce those. And my relationship with Bruce and eventually parting of Ways at Outfit was one of those. I guess it was sort of the catalyst for me to start to think about that a lot. It's really lovely because Bruce and I text quite regularly. We still have beers quite regularly as well. Well, I normally have a red wine and he'll normally have a beer depending on how many we have, but we're absolutely, I think the same people today that we were when we were excited about what Outfit could be.
I think what's formed a deeper connection today is going through that really kind of rough deep period of disagreement and misalignment and giving each other space to grieve over that as well. I think a lot of people really separate who they are personally to who they are at work, and though there may be connection between personal values and work values, I think some people feel they are very separate things. I just don't see that to be true, and that process really helped me bring a lot of those personal values, things that I just would never tolerate in a sort of personal capacity. It allowed me to try and bring those over into my professional life and work out how they could serve me there as well. And part of that I think is honesty and speaking up for what's right and what I genuinely believe in, but also being able to be flexible and listen to another person's point of view as well. And that process taught me a lot about that I think. And luckily Bruce is a very loving, open kind person and I'd like to think that I'm similar on a good day. And so I think that's given us both the ability to come back together and connect and give each other the time and space that we needed to process and then ultimately not throw a really incredible relationship away over a pretty small event really in the scheme of things that we got through in the end,
Brendan Jarvis:
I'm following this thread along of speaking up, finding your voice and not being what I got. The sense of there is not being afraid to do that, and also not to put everyone else ahead of your own needs. So I want to touch on something now that might raise a few eyebrows and it's to do with burnout culture more widely and something that you've said previously about this and that was we are focusing on people who grind at the computer till midnight and that type of thing. And so you see everyone around you doing it and you think, this is what I have to do, I have to show up like this. And so people just do it who aren't brave enough to have a conversation with a superior or a manager. So why I said that might raise a few eyebrows is from that quote, and I know it's just an isolated quote, so feel free to correct me here or paint a different picture. It sounded like you felt it was the individual's responsibility to take responsibility for that kind of a situation to avoid getting in that sort of burnout rut.
Ash Ivory:
Yes, absolutely. And it probably goes back a little bit to the ethos on the bike is that ultimately it's your responsibility. I don't think that it should end with you either. I think if you invite other people into that conversation, then that should kick off some introspection for those involved as well. And whether if you're at a large company, maybe there's a few people that can get involved at that point. If it's a little startup, it could just be voicing to a couple of key people and making sure that you're not, I think perpetuating that attitude. But I think that it starts with the individual first. It's like they say it's that tried and true phrase of put your own oxygen mask on first. It is a little bit of that self-care and knowing when to put your hand up and knowing that if you're putting your hand up, you're going to have to allow people to help as well.
It also means that people may not help and may not listen, and so you've really got to be prepared to take the next step if that signal didn't, I guess elicit the outcome that you want as well. But I think it is on the individual first because everyone has a range of different tolerances and especially founders, and this is probably the real part of it, is that most founders, and I'm generalising, but I think it's fair to say, most founders have the propensity to push themselves much harder for much longer than a lot of other people around them, hence why they're in that founding seat in the first place. And so sometimes people have their blinkers on and they kind of get wrapped up in their own things and you've got to say, Hey, I need help or this isn't right or I'm not comfortable with this.
But also saying it in a way that it can be heard is really important. And I think for a lot of the conversations that Outfit, especially between Bruce and I would have to take a lot of responsibility for how I started that conversation as well. And that doing that differently today I think would net a different result as well. So there's I think a few things that you need to unpack when you think about whose responsibility it is and where it goes from there. But if it starts with you, at least you've done what's required and ultimately then you have control of the next step in making that decision if it's not going the way that you want it to.
Brendan Jarvis:
This is clearly something that you've reflected on and thought a lot about. What is it that you feel you could put your finger on that stopped you from putting your oxygen mask on first?
Ash Ivory:
I think it was a sense of responsibility to the team first as a leader and to a lot of people around me that were going to be affected positively or negatively depending on the way we went. Software in the scheme of things, we're not saving lives. Some software doesn't. That's incredible, but the majority of it doesn't. And so I think there's a lot of seriousness that can come that is unwarranted in those situations and it can feel like life or death and you get wrapped up in that, but ultimately it's not really. And I think it's being able to take a step back and having the ability to reflect. That's something that I think I've really deeply learned from that. And I think to your question be why I couldn't put my hand up. I think it was a sense of responsibility and being part of a team and not wanting to let the team down. And obviously again, sports analogies, but being part of the team and putting in for the team is always, especially at a competitive level, it's something that's absolutely just part of the fabric of any team and vocabulary and promise. And so for me it was I've got to do this, I've got to put the team first. And sometimes that meant even putting Outfit and the Outfit brand above my wife and friends and family.
Brendan Jarvis:
You just mentioned putting Outfit ahead of your wife, your family, and your friends. This is something that perhaps I'm drawing a line that doesn't exist between these two points, but you've previously said that product is hard and that's because you have to get comfortable with saying no to people. How much of that demand that in a startup that you were facing as a head of product from, I think you mentioned there, you were suggesting that you felt responsible for the team ahead of yourself. How much of that pressure, not to say no, do you feel had a role in just where you ended up at the end there with Outfit?
Ash Ivory:
Oh, I think it was the primary role, absolutely. Especially when you aren't quite sure on the vision or the direction or the long term versus the short term. And I think every startup goes through this and a lot of the time you'll hear in early phases not quite having product market fit and chasing it and appeasing customers to get to a certain point where you can start making your own choices. But I think it is just a constant negotiation and there's never an end point where you have fit, things continue to evolve and you should be checking in. And so I think perhaps where the disconnect was there is that where I felt I was putting the right things ahead of others, I just wasn't and not checking back in and I guess slowing down to speed up, especially in a strategic capacity, I kind of got swept up in what we needed to do to continue to grow at all costs essentially and costs to both the strategy, the direction of the company, but also myself personally. I think
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, you've touching on the pace there, the pace of tech that we can experience and you've been working in a very high paced part of tech as well and startups and it can be very, very, very hard on the people that work there, particularly if they don't put in place the checks and balances like you were saying about slowing down to speed up. If that doesn't come naturally. And I understand while you're at Outfit, you've previously said something about celebrating wins that really stuck with me and it such a, well, hopefully the people listening to this, they can get a sense of what I mean by this. And I'll quote you now. You said we won quite a large client and we delayed the celebration. And I think there was a big learning for us of not doing that. Sometimes you have to go, alright, what are we going to do And actually put the time aside, celebrate it as a team and then move on. What was the impact on the team of not celebrating, not taking the time to celebrate that win?
Ash Ivory:
I think that I've subconsciously drawn quite a decent, I guess, connection to those types of celebrations and myself as a kid. So one thing that I haven't really touched on a whole lot is that although mom and I had an incredible relationship, she was also as an individual, an extremely intelligent high achiever where she applied herself. So there are a lot of things that were effortless for mom. And I think as she observed me growing up, she sort of carried through a lot of her own childhood experience, which was mom's family didn't often celebrate a whole lot because the kids were, especially in a sporting capacity, they were all so gifted. And I remember coming home from my first few sports days and I remember kind of having this fist full of ribbons. I think I had a couple of blue ones in there and mostly red, so blue being first and red being second, and mom sort of looked at me and went, that's great.
And that was sort of the long and the short of it. And I think it's also because mom had an extreme belief in me that she had a feeling that whatever I put my mind to I would achieve, but that almost became the norm. And not that I was incredible at everything at school, there was certainly a lot of things that I really struggled with, but where I think she could see that I put my mind to something, the outcome was almost expected that I would succeed. And upon reflection, I think that really shaped my view of my achievements and not kind of stopping and acknowledging what was good and just I always felt like we were sort of onto the next thing. And I think that if you apply it to startups can be a very, very common pattern. I think more often than not it's because at the early stages you're really looking for the next win that you need to get to the next win.
And so before you know it, you miss the celebration completely because you've had the celebration or you've sort of seen the path ahead of the win, and so you don't stop and think about what it took to get there. You're thinking about the next part of the path that it opens up. And so when you do that consistently on repeat to a team, I think you undermine the effort and they start to believe that that's the norm. That's the standard we achieve quite highly all the time. And it's nothing to be celebrated and that's just completely and utterly soul crushing and culture destroying because you have to celebrate the wins, even if it's the little things you could have quite a bad day, but maybe it's just one or two little wins that are going to allow you to get up and do it again the next day.
And so I think you've really got to take the time good and bad, whether the win is a massive one like we experienced at Outfit or whether it's just something small that you've seen someone in the team deliver well, or it doesn't even have to be work related, right? You've really got to celebrate wins in life because I think you miss out on the beauty of the process and the journey and yeah, you kind of forget to reflect and take stock and pause and understand how much effort that it took and that it is something worth celebrating.
Brendan Jarvis:
Ash, it sounds like this has been such a pivotal past few years for you on this particular topic, what have you changed as a result of previously not stopping to celebrate these wins with the team? What specific things are you doing differently now as a result of this realisation?
Ash Ivory:
I certainly can still get better at this. I think there's always room to do better and it's actually quite touching for you to have dug through so many of my interviews and things, Brendan, honestly, I've never had someone bring so many things to light. So this has been incredible in itself to just remind myself of why that's important. But one thing that's a big theme me at the moment in life to get things done because life is busy and there's so much going on, yes, massive celebrations are excellent and putting the time in and actually putting time aside and making sure that the team is aware that we're going to go and do something or take time out or whatever it is, that's something that's changed. But I think for me on the smaller day-to-day side of things, if I see something that's amazing, not waiting until I see that person next sending a slack message or making time to go and speak to that person at that moment or calling things out in a group setting where you can, I think just constantly being a bit of a role model of how you can do that.
And it doesn't have to be a huge celebration. It can be something small, but if you can be a little bit deliberate about your words or how you frame it or whatever it is, I think just taking time to embed smaller celebrations like that in the day over whatever type of win you want leads to people understanding that celebrating is important and it gives you time to reflect and building things that are a little bit ritualistic around that as well. So at Askable, and this little ritual existed before I started, anytime we hit a sales goal or a usage goal or whatever type of goal that we've set, and it's pretty common at Askable to hit goals, we always crack a bottle of champagne and if we hit that sales goal at 10:00 AM then we're all having a glass at that point and everything stops and we all get together as a team and acknowledge that win.
And I think it's a little bit of that immediacy as well that I'm getting at is, Hey, we've hit it, it's happened. We're not delaying it. I like the example you gave. We are doing it now and it's happening or it's not going to go on too long in the future. We're going to celebrate it pretty soon. I think that's kind of part of the euphoria that you have when you win, want to be in that moment with everyone and celebrate in that moment. So yeah, I think part of it is working out your rituals, working out your triggers and knowing that everyone is aligned and can celebrate together.
Brendan Jarvis:
Ash, something that I really wanted to leave enough time in our conversation to go into is something that you've perhaps not in the immediate sense that we were talking about here in terms of celebrating wins, but definitely recently you've shared something that you learned about yourself, which was that you have been diagnosed with A DHD, and it's not something specifically the A DHD, although I am really interested to discuss that if we have time, but that's one part of what makes you someone who is different to most people. You're someone who's also openly queer and you've previously shared your experience about what it was like for you coming out when you were 13. And I also noticed in recent years, and people may have picked this up from your introduction, that you've started using them pronouns as well. I want to come back to what this was like in your earlier years because, and I'll summarise what you've said previously about this here, it's that you felt like you lacked the language to articulate your identity, and then you went on to contrast what this is like for your step kids who are growing up with a much deeper understanding of gender identity and sexuality.
So what I'm curious about is do you ever wonder what it would be like if you and your peers had that same level of comfort and awareness when you were growing up?
Ash Ivory:
All the time? All the time. I wonder about it all the time. I wonder just about small things like restrooms. For the majority of my life there's been generally when you go to a shopping centre or airport, whatever, there's three, right? There's the parents' room and there's the men's and there's the women's. And even that very small I guess, choice in life, it was just there. And I never thought that it could be different. There was never another option really. And I reflect on this all the time be, I'm not really sure how different I would be as a person in the sense that I'm sure that it would've had a huge impact. It's wild to think about what that would've meant for me. And it's actually at times I think a little bit frightening because you sort of have such a deep sense of identity by the time you get to this age and your identity's being formed on a few of those hardships, I suppose.
And I wonder would I be as resilient or as gritty or focused if I didn't have I guess those challenges early on or if I didn't have that tension or pushback from the vast majority of people. I don't want to glorify suffering that way. I don't think that's what I'm trying to get at. But I do think that there's moments in life that kind of shape you. And I think a lot have been around my gender and sexuality. I was always well supported by my close group friends and teachers and adults I think who just could see who I was going to grow up to be. And they kept me safe and they supported me quite deeply. But I think I would probably have a little bit less trauma if everyone was a little bit more aligned in terms of just using the right words for the right people.
Brendan Jarvis:
Now speaking about trauma, you've previously said, and I'll quote you now, I was quite ashamed for many, many years when I started getting into the workforce. My identity was something that I certainly kept at home. Or were there specific moments or incidents that reinforced that feeling that you should keep your identity in inverted commas at home?
Ash Ivory:
Absolutely. There was. I very, very distinctly recall a job interview that I went through where we got to the end and I was successful. And the guy interviewing me at the time said, if you wouldn't mind, Ash, I know you've mentioned your partner a few times, but our boss here is quite staunchly opposed to the gay agenda. And at the time there was a lot of momentum building in Australia around marriage equality, and we were coming up to, the plebiscite date was close to being set, so we were still a while off, but there was a lot out in the press. And I obliged, I said, sure, I understand. But that was a big moment for me. And I've had other moments where I've been in more corporate jobs and the attire that I've been asked to wear is completely at the other end of the spectrum from what I normally would wear told to cover tattoos up and things like that.
So those two are quite significant for me, I think because it was literally how you keep your sexuality at home and dress differently. Obviously there's uniforms and things that many places, but even at the time there wasn't the range or even I think the gender expression in corporate wear that there is today. You look at places like Woolworths, I was at a conference a while back and one of the speakers was sort of talking deeply about a project that they did where they got to design the corporate wardrobe for Woolworths and they were talking about every individual under the sun being represented in that from important, I guess religious beliefs, right through to gender identity and being able to choose and express yourself in any way. And it's such an extreme change in such a small amount of time, which is incredible. But I'm certainly not that old and I've seen the gamut of that and I know that there are those who have come before me who have had it much, much harder and far more restrictive. But for me, those are a couple of key events that really stood out early that I was a bit shocked by even at that point in time.
Brendan Jarvis:
And so from where you are now and thinking about those experiences, how do you feel they impacted you? How did they affect you?
Ash Ivory:
It's made me quite upfront now when it comes to everything from who I associate with through to how I look at any opportunity in front of me, it's also made me embrace difference of opinion and not shy away from those conversations. And it's really important for me to take the time to understand underst the individual and where they're coming from because I think a lot of the time these types of decisions or opinions come from really deep core beliefs. And a lot of the time those are formed quite early in life. And I think sometimes you would talk to an individual and they might not even really know why they believe something, they just know they do or it's something that's being reinforced through family or whatever. And so for me, it's about being clear on my boundaries and what I need and what I believe is right for people and creating safe environments and being able to show up, but then also being a little bit, I guess challenging and trying to understand why certain people feel a certain way or have a certain belief.
And if you're able to move them even just a little bit closer to a slightly different view, I think it's a worthwhile thing doing. I think you've got to know the type of person who is in front of you and how that may play out, but I think you get older and you kind of know how to make those calls when you meet someone as well. But yeah, I think it's given me a really clear sense of what I need, what's challenging at work if something's framed a certain way and what's not. And then it's given me the confidence to challenge other people a little bit more openly on a range of different things, not just about gender and diversity of thought and all of those very important topics, but there's things wider than that that serve me today. I think when we're talking about product and people have dnce of opinion and things like that, I think not fearing that healthy debate and knowing that you can separate the person from the idea and having those conversations around idea rather than add a person can be quite surprising because you can walk out of there with that person also saying, I'm thinking about this differently now as well.
Brendan Jarvis:
This is reminding me of a quote that I'd written down from something completely or potentially completely different that you'd said previously. And I'll just read this to you and see if it resonates with where we're at. In this part of the conversation, you said, I really try to understand the way that the traffic flows and then where you can change lanes, where you can be a little bit more boisterous on the bike and where you just need to sit in your lane.
Ash Ivory:
Yes. So I recall that was obviously we were talking about road craft and things like that. These things kind of cut through for a reason, how you have conversations with people about what and when. All of those things are variables I think that you are constantly kind of traversing and negotiating with in life, and it's the picking your battles and your approach. I think those things absolutely overlap. And one thing I've been exploring quite deeply over the last few months, feeling like I'm in a really clear head space is putting my principles down. And like I said before, going through that process I've realised personal principles, work principles, they're all the same. And so I think there's these underlying ways of thinking that will serve you well. And whether it's on the bike, whether it's with a partner or whether it's a work conversation, like knowing how that person is showing up that day and knowing how to have that conversation is part of the battle, I think. And whether they're going to be receptive to it or whether it's best to leave it completely or maybe come back at another time.
Brendan Jarvis:
And at work, you seem to have been able to literally realise or express these values or principles that you hold Askable as a company. That's put a lot of visible emphasis on diversity and specifically in the way that it helps researchers to find people from diverse backgrounds to do research with. And about this, you've previously said, and I'll quote you again, A part of me is thankful we're having those conversations as a product team where I can see that my pronouns are in our simple screen of questions, and that just completely blows my mind. So what stories, if any of you heard from customers about these types of features in the product or perhaps it's participants?
Ash Ivory:
It's interesting because we have lots of conversations around this, both, I'm not going to say bad, but from lots of different perspectives. And I think one thing that we are trying to find the line around or tread carefully is a lot of people do want to show up and represent maybe their personal intersectionality on a few of these topics, and some people don't. And I think being sensitive to that is really important as well. I think we assume that if someone is a certain way that they'll be quite open and wanting to talk about that, and some people don't. And so that's been part of the challenge of, I guess working out how we allow our participants in the app to divulge this information if they want to, but also help them understand that it's completely fine if they don't. And that's obviously with probably more subtle sort of nuanced, whether it's demographics or attitudes, but there is a broader sense that diversity of thought, background, race, gender, all of those things, having that makes for better research.
And most clients, if not all understand that at least at a basic level now and building it into the product and having it just as part of the DNA of how we think and how we build features has meant we just naturally start to take all different types of people into consideration. And also not just around demographic stuff, but accessibility and making sure that's type of mind as well. So I think it just has this really beautiful impact on everything, whether it's who we're putting in illustrations or how we are thinking about features and who we believe the audience is primarily. It's a tricky one. I think you're always trying to be deliberate about who you are designing for, but there's also the reality that you are never quite across every need or every background. So I think just keeping our team curious and making sure that they understand they don't know of everything and they're still learning as well. Having that as just part of the journey and always trying to be respectful, open, curious. I think it's really built in some nice logic and muscle when the team's thinking about solving problems and make some pretty good people as
Brendan Jarvis:
Well. And I don't want to underweight the impact that these changes are having, the significance of them, but from my way of looking at these aren't large changes. They're significant, but they're small. This is a culture of being more accommodating to more people, showing up in things like making sure that dropdowns have pronouns that are inclusive for a wider group of people. So we're not asking people to complete, you're not asking people to completely re-engineer product here, but these series of small yet significant changes that are being built into the product over time. What impact, if any, do you feel that they're having on the trajectory or the broader conversation that's going on in society at the moment around gender and diversity?
Ash Ivory:
I think it's making the people who have historically been uncomfortable, more uncomfortable, which is great because when you feel that stretch, I think that's when you're kind of in the right zone and maybe you are being exposed to something that is important, but you're right, B, this isn't groundbreaking staff, but nor is having a unisex restroom in a location. And we see just the sheer range of that in our daily lives. And although those things seem small, they still delightful for me when I find them, they give me that feeling in any product and whether that's a massive brand that has the people power to invest in research and really thoroughly think through who their audience is right through to smaller companies like us who are just quite passionate about it and trying to be deliberate around how we're considering it. I think just through exposure, people are thinking about where there's gaps in their lives, in their language, if they are in product, their products, things like that. I think it's just bringing a different type of awareness to many different places and areas because of what we're including now versus what was excluded in the past.
Brendan Jarvis:
How do you feel about those people that might use the products? And this is something that you've invested a lot of energy into and this is something that's quite personal. I would imagine you were talking there earlier on about how the separation between personal life and work life isn't really something that you see. How do you feel about those people that might be using Askable and feeling uncomfortable about the level of inclusion that's present in the product?
Ash Ivory:
I would hope that, well, firstly, I would hope that they are seeking, I guess, that support or help that they need and that if it was truly that difficult that they were able to have a conversation with myself or anyone in the team. But I also think that the stretch is fair and I'm overgeneralizing, but I would assume that people who are feeling uncomfortable about those things have probably had a level of comfort in their life in the majority of situations where the minorities haven't as well. And so I think if people feeling uncomfortable can take that sort of learner mindset and kind of self-reflect and understand why they feel uncomfortable and what's triggering that, I'm really hoping it has a bit of a deeper impact and perhaps they might start to reconsider how they're making decisions, whether they change their mind or not is neither here nor there. I think just having people start to reflect and think about their thinking is probably the most important part. I think for all of us, whether we think we're on the right side of this or not understanding why you're there and maybe how you form that opinion is almost more important than the opinion itself.
Brendan Jarvis:
Well, Ash, as we bring our conversation down to a close now and thinking about the people that you are trying to include that are on the other side of this particular conversation, I'm mindful that there may be some listeners out there that are grappling with similar feelings of shame about their identity and in particular in the relation to their professional lives, much like you experienced in the past. What advice or words of encouragement or thoughts would you like to offer them?
Ash Ivory:
Probably if I could leave them with one thing, it's to make sure that they've got safe space. And this cuts both ways, right? And I'm not saying people who are uncomfortable with pronouns should be sheltered for too much longer, but it's still a journey and it's a journey for everyone. And I think it's really, it goes back to burnout, it goes back to all of those things. You have to create space to look after yourself. And so if you're in a job where the reality is you just can't show up the way that you want to, I really hope those people have some type of community that's close to the one that they would hope to be open in. And that may help them work out, how do I navigate this? Where is safe near this? Or is there a way that I can have an inclusive environment in the future?
I think sometimes when you're focusing on what's in front of you, it can be very all or nothing thinking. And I remember being in those positions and thinking, this is just how every job is. This is how the world is. If I want to be successful as a designer, then this is how I'm going to have to show up, which is wild because it's another tangent. But I think if you can take the time and be deliberate about creating that space and making sure you protect that, that will give you the energy to get up again and have some of the more tougher conversations or compromise where you need to for the right reasons for your future as well. But I think again, like we were talking about, thinking about your thinking and making sure you are reflecting on that, you've really got to check in with yourself and work out when is enough enough as well.
And sometimes you have to make those hard calls. So I think if you can have a supportive environment that's not a crazy echo chamber and you're keeping fairly levelheaded and making good trade-offs, that will put you in good stead to deal with any type of situation, whether it's because you belong to a smaller community that identify in a certain way, or if you're just dealing with someone difficult at work. I think all of these things can transcend the kind of context and using that approach of getting your energy, understanding what you can control, feeling loved and valued, and then using that as a way to go and fight the good fight. I think that's the thing that's potentially an endless cycle of possibility.
Brendan Jarvis:
And what an important point to finish on. Ash, you've been so candid and courageous in this conversation. Thank you for so generously sharing your stories and your insights with me today.
Ash Ivory:
Brendan, thank you for being honestly so considered and careful and you've told such a beautiful story on my behalf as well. So thank you so much. I deeply appreciate it.
Brendan Jarvis:
Oh, you're most welcome, Ash. You're most welcome. Ash, if people want to find out more about you and follow all the wonderful things that you've been contributing to the product and design communities, what's the best way for them to do that?
Ash Ivory:
Look, I love a good LinkedIn request because then we can work out what channel's best. So if in doubt, hit me up on LinkedIn and we'll find our space together.
Brendan Jarvis:
Okay, great. Thanks Ash. And to everyone who's tuned in, it's been great having you here as well. Everything we've covered will be in the show notes, including where you can find Ash on LinkedIn and all of the things that we've been speaking about will be chaptered, so make sure you check those out.
If you've enjoyed the show and you want to hear more great conversations like this with world-class leaders in UX research, product management and design, don't forget to leave a review. Also subscribe to the podcast so it turns up every two weeks and tell someone else, maybe just one other person that you feel would get value from these types of conversations at depth.
If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn, just search for Brendan Jarvis. There's also a link to my profile at the very bottom of the show notes, or you can head on over to my website, which is thespaceinbetween.co.nz. That's thespaceinbetweenco.nz. And until next time, keep being brave.

Ash Ivory

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