A’verria Martin

Episode 123
Brave UX

Building Bridges, ReOps and Presence

In this episode of Brave UX, A’verria Martin shares her remarkable story of reinvention ☀️, the challenges of establishing a global ReOps practice 🧗, and how she’s making the ‘seat at the table’ her own 🎨.

Highlights include:

How did you become a licensed marriage and family therapist?
How did you navigate the transition from academia to industry?
How have you worked with UXR leaders as you’ve built ReOps?
How have you been developing your executive presence?
How do you work with stakeholders to achieve your objectives?

November 14, 202301:10:07

Listen on:

Who is A’verria Martin, PhD?

A’verria is the Director, Chief of Staff, and Head of Research Operations and Strategy at ServiceNow 🟢, a global enterprise software company that’s busy making the world of work better, for everyone.

Performing a multi-faceted role, A’verria is responsible for leading strategic initiatives, building bridges across functions 🤝, directing financial strategy, supporting the growth of other UX leaders, and acting as a trusted advisor to the VP of UX Research and Insights.

A’verria also continues to lead ServiceNow’s ReOps team 🚀; a team that she established after joining the company in late 2018.

Before ServiceNow, A’verria was a Director of Research at UC San Diego, where she led the operations of a multi-million dollar endowed research unit 🧑‍🔬, comprised of 120 faculty and focused on geriatric mental health and aging.

Transcript

A'verria Martin:
I feel like who you are today doesn't need to define who you are tomorrow, and I feel like we can be whoever we want to be if we're willing to make the investment.
Brendan Jarvis:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Brave UX. I'm Brendan Jarvis, managing founder of The Space in Between, the behavior-based UX research partner for enterprise leaders who need an independent perspective to align hearts and minds, and also the home of New Zealand's first and only world-class human-centered research and innovation lab. You can find out more about what we do at thespaceinbetween.co nz.
Hhere on Brave UX though, it's my job to help you to keep on top of the latest thinking and important issues affecting the fields of UX research, product management, and design. I do that by unpacking the stories, learnings, and expert advice of a diverse range of world-class leaders in those fields.
My guest today is Dr. A'verria Martin. A'verria is the director, chief of staff and head of research operations and strategy at ServiceNow, a global enterprise software company that's busy making the world of work better for everyone at ServiceNow.
A'verria's role is as important as it is multifaceted. Amongst other things, she is responsible for leading strategic initiatives, building bridges across functions, directing financial strategy, supporting the growth of other UX leaders, and acting as a trusted advisor to the VP of UX research and insights.
A'verria also continues to lead ServiceNow's research ops team, a team that she established after joining the company in 2018.
Before ServiceNow, A'verria was a director of research at UC San Diego, where she led the operations of a multimillion dollar endowed research unit comprised of 120 faculty and focused on geriatric mental health and aging.
A generous contributor to the field, A'verria has previously shared her insights and forums like the Awkward Silences podcast, the ReOps conference, and as a contributor to the Dovetail blog.
An energetic, empathetic and experienced leader, I've been looking forward to today's conversation. A'verria, hello and a very warm welcome to the show.
A'verria Martin:
Oh, hello Brendan. Thank you so much for that introduction. That was amazing.
Brendan Jarvis:
Hey, well it's all you. I didn't do anything other than write up all the highlights of a fabulous career so far. And one of the things that I didn't mention that I did learn about you A'verria, when I was preparing for today is that for almost seven years alongside your postdoc and then the leadership of the research unit, and right up until you started working in tech, you were a licensed marriage and family therapist where you, and I'll quote you now, as per your LinkedIn profile provided strength-based systems therapy from a sociocultural attachment lens to individuals, couples, and families. I have to admit, that kind of blew my mind and I'm still not really sure what that is. So could you please tell me what exactly did that involve?
A'verria Martin:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I've been really excited since we talked in December about getting together. So here we are eight months later, finally on calendar. What does that mean? So it's interesting. I knew that you were going to ask me about my history today, and I was thinking about what new would I really bring to the table? And I think one thing I haven't talked much about is my career as a therapist. When I was finishing my undergrad, I thought I wanted to be a researcher and I interviewed a ton of people about their jobs and mental health, social workers, marriage and family therapists, psychologists, et cetera. And the more I talked to marriage and family therapists, the more I thought like, wow, I feel like that's a profession I could really get behind. Really sitting in a room with people with their emotions, with their stuff and really helping them kind of sort that out and figure out the best way forward, right at the heart of it's just human behavior and really trying to help in profession.
And so I got my master's in marriage and family therapy and in the last six months of my master's program, I kind of changed my mind and was like, no, I do want to do research. So I kind of almost got reinvigorated, but I wanted to do research with this systemic lens. And so I went on and got my PhD in marriage and family therapy with a specialization in medical family therapy. And then I really had the opportunity to do both. So I got to really pursue a research career at U C S D as part of my postdoc, really focused on serious mental illnesses, but really bringing in that perspective of family resilience, community resilience, and the way that we operate within a system. And at the same time, actually to back up a little bit, to be a licensed marriage and family therapy, you have to do a lot of hours, a lot of clinical hours, 3000 actually.
And so I did a number of different, I pursued a number of different places and disciplines in order to get those hours. One being I worked in hospice for about two years. So working with family that were very near end of life, I worked in a clinic for low income folks where I was focused on helping families who were facing diabetes diagnosis and really how the system comes together to address that illness. And then right about the time I was getting licensed, I joined a group practice where I was focusing on couples work as well as seeing families with diagnosed with autism. And that's really kind of where the attachment work started coming in. I specialized in a therapy called emotionally focused Therapy that really is about creating secure attachments in relationships. A lot of the maladaptive behaviors that we see in relationships are due to insecure attachments, whether they're avoidantly attached or whether they're enmeshed. And so it's really getting into a place where people feel secure, they feel trust in their relationship, whether it be in a couple relationship or whether it be in a friend relationship or in a parent child relationship. And so that attachment based approach was really about creating that security and allowing people to be seen and really thinking about the way that a system operates, not just within the familial system, but really in the broader context of the community as well.
Brendan Jarvis:
Listening to you describe what's involved and the types of places and things that you did to get those 3000 clinical hours. It strikes me as perhaps I'm projecting here, but quite a confronting quite a heavy, quite a important part of people's lives that you are playing a role in. What was it that brought you, I know you said you interviewed some people about this type of work, but what was it that really brought you or called you to spend part of your life doing this particular type of work?
A'verria Martin:
Yeah, I mean, that's such an interesting question. I mean, I think even when I was little, I wanted to be a psychologist, which is a really weird thing for a child to want to be because I think I'm just a very naturally curious and empathetic person. But fun fact about me, and I don't think something I've shared previously is my senior year of high school, actually, my mom was a cosmetology teacher, and I went and got a manicuring license. And so from 17 through graduate school, probably 27, 30, I was a manicurist. And I almost feel like that role is so similar to being a therapist. People come and they talk to you and you connect with people on a very relational level, but it is very much a one-sided interaction in the same way that therapy is, right? It's not a friendship necessarily, but it's almost like a business transaction where you're really hearing from them and really the complexity of people's life, the different excitements and hardships that people go through, the maladaptive behavior that we take part in, even when we know that it's not good for us.
And I think that that was at the heart of why I pursued a degree in psychology and then marriage and family therapy. I wanted to do more of that work, but in a more trained way where I could really help people to really make a positive impact on people's lives. I wasn't in that position necessarily when I was a manicurist because I wasn't really trained to do that type of work. But I think through graduate school, you start to build those foundations to help people lean on the strengths that they have and I guess actualize them to their best selves.
Brendan Jarvis:
I get the sense you must've seen quite a few people, even when you were a manicurist, you would've had many, many, many conversations with people before you made this something that was a profession. From all these conversations that you've had with people both as a manicurist but also professionally as a therapist, what have you seen or learned or experienced that surprised you about people and their behavior as you were trying to help them to become a better version of themselves?
A'verria Martin:
That's a really great question, and I think at the heart of it is really helping people to believe and trust that they can be that best version of self. I feel like in the world there tends to be a fair bit of self-doubt and people not really, I don't know if they don't feel like they're worthy of great things or don't want to, I don't know if it's not want to do the work, but really sit in that discomfort that you need to sometimes to grow. And so I don't know. I feel like I just was really committed to helping people over that hump for people to really see their true greatness and what they are capable of and helping them to lean in with support to get there, if that makes sense.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And I dunno if what I'm about to ask you next is perhaps framed in the true spirit of the knowledge that I'm seeking here, but if we were to think about your practice as a therapist or perhaps with therapy in general, and you mentioned the level of self-doubt out there that exists and that it sounded like half the job is actually helping people to realize that they have what it takes to actually be better. What was the success rate, if you like? How able, in your experience were people to actually get over that hump and to really get the most and the benefit out of the therapy that was being provided?
A'verria Martin:
I mean, unfortunately, people, they get out what they put in, and in therapy we have kind of categories. And in order for people to really benefit from the process and meet their goals, they have to be a consumer of therapy. They have to be there because they want to be there, not because their family member said to be there or there was some sort of ulterior motive. It really has to be them saying, I'm done with this version of myself and I'm ready to move into this version, the better version. I want to get rid of these things that are self-limiting, that are holding me back, that are keeping me from that best life that's possible. So they have to be ready. And so success rate, I don't know, that's, that's really hard to say, but I know that people that are most successful are the people who are willing to do the work and who are ready and who want to be in that next place.
And there was times in my career where I would see somebody for a period of time and we wouldn't make a lot of progress. One thing that I know is you can't work harder than your clients. You can't want it for them more than they want it for themselves, and you can't talk somebody into changing. And sometimes it would feel a bit like Groundhogs Day where it's like, we have this conversation last week, why aren't we getting things there? And so we tend to just call that out, are you willing to do the work? It feels like maybe you're wasting both of our time. It feels like maybe you're wasting your money right now. So either show up or let's get out of this insanity spiral, and maybe they would take a break and then come back and be ready.
Brendan Jarvis:
So you weren't afraid to hold the mirror up a bit of tough love. Sounds like
A'verria Martin:
I tend to be not confronting in a negative way, but in the most empathetic way possible.
Brendan Jarvis:
Well, you're going for the best outcome for them. So yeah, I totally hear you there. Was it a hard decision to stop practicing?
A'verria Martin:
Yes and no. So when I was practicing, I was practicing. So I was at U C S D 40, 50 hours a week doing research, leading our research program, and then I was in private practice. I would say between 18 and 22 hours a week or so I was seeing clients. And that's a really tough schedule to keep up. I would say by the time that I made the transition to ServiceNow and to industry, I was probably burned out on both accounts because my plan really was to take a break and then establish myself at ServiceNow and then reconsider how I wanted to have a private practice in the future. I kind of wanted to refocus around fitness, which is kind of my second love. But then I realized that in this type of leadership role, I still got to lean on those skills every day. I think that empathy for people, understanding human behavior, understanding how to lean into people's strengths to help to get them motivated and focused, those come through in my everyday work. And so I didn't feel like there was a piece missing in the way that I thought there would be.
Brendan Jarvis:
I understand that at some point. So talking about this point of transition out of academia into tech, at some point when you were running the department, you got that, I suppose I describe it as an itch that sort of will to try something new to get into tech. And I understand that you had a friend in the industry and you met with them for coffee and you brought along your cv. How did that conversation go?
A'verria Martin:
Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Well, I mean it went well. It ended up fine, right? I mean, I'm here. It was humbling to say the least. I mean, academics in some ways, you're only as good as your CV really. It is a publish or parish type environment. And so I had this very sexy 27 page CV
Brendan Jarvis:
That I can just say it now, and
A'verria Martin:
He was not impressed. I don't understand why. No, I mean, it was really interesting to think about how to really translate the things I'd been doing for all of these years into business outcomes and what drives business value and really table all of those things because that was my entire identity is these papers that three people probably read.
Brendan Jarvis:
Well, you did say it was humbling. It sounds like it was very fruitful as well. Like you said, you ended up making that transition from academics into industry. And I read the follow-up post on Medium that you wrote about your ops conference presentation, which you were exploring in there, some of the various paths that the yourself and other team members, the people that work with you and for you have taken to arrive in. I think research ops specifically was the context, and you said about this, and I'll just quote you now, you said it is important to first identify your superpowers, the hard and soft skills that make you an asset to any role, and then articulate them in a quantifiable way that demonstrates how they relate to the role you want to obtain. So when you applied for that first role at ServiceNow, possibly with some help from your friend going through your 27 page brilliant academics cv, what skills did you emphasize the most and how did you decide that those were the skills that mattered for that role? Which just for context, for people listening, it was the role of senior research operations manager.
A'verria Martin:
I mean, at the time, research operations as a discipline was very much in its infancy, so there wasn't a lot of literature out there about what that meant. And at ServiceNow, it was probably even more nebulous because there was nothing, I was kind of the first person entering this discipline, but I really thought about from an organizational infrastructure point of view, what does it take to make a business run? What does it take the business of operations to run? And so at U C S D, we had a very large endowment of money. And so really talking about the way that that operational spending was managed, we had funding that came from internal sources and external sources like multimillion dollar grants with the National Institute of Health, how we managed up to 2025 studies at any given time from very small studies to very large studies, how we went around resourcing and capacity for those studies, whether it be the individuals who were collecting data, the people, statisticians that were analyzing the data, et cetera.
So really thinking about what would we need for those studies to run successfully. Something that I'm sure if anybody's listening to me before or something near and dear to my heart, is really capitalizing on the human subjects governance that comes from academic research through IRBs and making sure that we are doing our best for people and that we're seeing participants or being humans and not just a data collection vehicle, the staff management, of course, I managed a very large cohort of folks at U C S T from research associates through medical students, through postdocs. And so really the way that I approached leadership in a very unique way for each person communication. So everything's really about communication, whether it be, I think probably across all jobs. And so I think really highlighting those communication skills, ability to share at the right level, dependent on if you're communicating with a VP or if you're communicating to your larger organization. So really thinking about those things from the organizational perspective that I had done in the past that I felt like would be applicable at the business level.
Brendan Jarvis:
And when you were done with the revamp of the cv, just how many pages did it end up being?
A'verria Martin:
It was two. It was two pages, but there was a little appendix that had highlight publications. I couldn't completely let it go.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. I imagine a lot of blood, sweat and tears went into those papers, so fair enough. You mentioned just previously about the importance of things like institutional review boards, the emphasis that gets placed in academics on ethics, and well, this is me riffing off that now, but treating people as people is something that you mentioned. And I heard Holly Cole, who's the c e O of the research ops community, and you speaking on the research ops podcast and she asked you about IRBs. You said that they were very important just like you did here, but later on in the conversation she asked you another question, which was, did you miss them? You said no, but that you appreciated what they taught you. And so I was curious, what have you borrowed from your time in academics and applied at ServiceNow in standing up that research ops function? What sort of goodies did you take from that part of your life and bring forward into the current chapter?
A'verria Martin:
Yeah, that sounds right, A little conflicting, but it sounds right. I do appreciate them. I think unfortunately, IRBs all often feel pretty bureaucratic red tape. And so I think that's the real issue. And I think they kind of get a bad rap just because of that. But ultimately, when we think about human subjects and we think about data and privacy and governance, these are all hot topics right now and they should be, right. I mean, our data is more prevalent and out there than it has ever been before. And so really making sure that when people trust you to collect their data, to have an interview with you to complete a survey that you are treating their data in the best possible way. Having data retention policies, do you need to have this video for more than 180 days after this research is complete? Probably not.
And that's somebody's intellectual property. So really thinking about what is the baseline that you should have for protecting human subjects and anything that comes with it, whether it be video, auto recordings, transcripts, demographic information, all of those things. So really making sure that we're staying considerate of those things. One thing that we are really instituting this year is more of a consent process. It's going to be far more lightweight than it was in academics. I mean, we were having people sign 10 page consents at one point in time. We were doing medication studies. Is this just one page where people really understand why we're collecting this data? What is this for? How will this drive product decisions? How will their data be stored? How will it be used? What are their rights as a human subject to pull that data? So I feel like these are just these attributes and this focus on treating human subjects fairly and as a real asset that I've kind of brought over. I also have members of my team who wholeheartedly are dedicated to this subject. And I think it's beautiful to see because I think sometimes in the collection process we can just get really, really focused on how can we move quickly instead of really seeing that there's people at the other end of this,
Brendan Jarvis:
The move from academics into industry. I've heard you talk about the feeling that you had and you were touching on wanting something that was a little bit more fast paced than the academic world. And you've just been explaining there the level of rigor that gets or has to legally has to get applied when you're doing things that involve medical treatments or whatever it may be. But that in industry, it sounds like it's almost a process of right sizing that for the job at hand. And I was curious about something else that you'd said on the research ops podcast, which was touching on the pace of change that you've experienced in industry or that we have all experienced, those of us that work in industry, and you said about this, you have to be incredibly flexible as research operations professionals and understand that things are always going to change because the needs of an organization change over time. And that's okay. So you're talking also earlier there about bringing in a different consenting process to help people understand what they're there for and what we're going to do with their information once it's captured. Have you always been so comfortable with change or is this something that you've had to work at over time in your career?
A'verria Martin:
Oh my gosh, that's a good question. I've always been this comfortable with change, probably not. I think as I've grown and matured, I'm probably more flexible than I was previously because I don't know, I just trust the process a little bit more. I think sometimes rigidity can slow you down and can really halt that creative flow. But yeah, I mean I think probably early in my career I was probably very regimented and really focused on process and making sure that we follow the process and dot all the I and cross all the T's, and now I'm like, well, maybe this is somewhere where we can ask forgiveness. I think we kind of pick and choose which areas we do that. Would it be in human subjects protection and ethics and governance? Probably not. Would it be in creatively recruiting and maybe not always getting that final checkoff sales approval maybe? I don't know. So I think we kind of have to pick and choose our battles. I do think if we're too rigid, it can kind of keep us from being creative in our approach to problem solving. So yes, I think I probably have changed quite a bit in my career.
Brendan Jarvis:
I want to talk with you now about part of what you did when you were standing up the research ops practice, and that was the engagement or the emphasis on engagement with other UX research leaders that you had. These I've heard you talk about before weren't just the most senior leaders in the UX research function, but you were doing this to understand their needs and to give them the visibility of what you were working on. What was it that engagement, perhaps with some reflection now over the longer term or the midterm, what has that given you that you wouldn't have or you believe you wouldn't have received otherwise?
A'verria Martin:
That's an interesting question. I'm trying to go back and think about how I positioned that previously. And I think it's probably in that number one, I've been very blessed as part of the leadership team that my peers are the workflow leads. And so I feel like I have a direct line to them and their needs at any given time that those have really changed over the years. When I came, I was about the ninth, 10th person in the organization and now we have a hundred plus people in our organization. And so what worked five years ago is not necessarily what works today and our problems kind of change over time. And so making sure that that's not a one and done conversation and that we're always thinking about what are the needs of the organization now? Where do we potentially even have some operational debt that we need to go back and rethink, et cetera. In addition, my team, I do feel like they're very good at taking the researchers along in the journey. We don't just sit in a room and think about the processes that we want to oppress people with.
We try to understand what's the needs of the organization, how would our researchers in the organization, how do they want to address that problem and what can we do to make a very low weight process for them to follow? Are we awesome at that all the time? No, we're not in the customer engagement realm. It's still a huge hairy problem in enterprise recruiting personas across all of our product portfolios for a hundred plus person organization. We started with a process back in 2019 that was pretty damn heavy. And you know what? We've gone in and we've iterated and we've iterated and we've iterated in concert with our researchers. Is it perfect? No, but it is very much still a living process that we're working on constantly and taking feedback. And so I think making sure that within our research organization and even cross-functionally, whether it be with design product content, pm et cetera, is making sure that we're always taking on the perspective of others and not just going and deciding how we're going to approach any specific problem.
Brendan Jarvis:
And this is something that you have personally invested time in understanding. And by that I mean you alongside your role of standing up this team, you are also managing a UX research team for ServiceNow's AI solutions. And so you personally were directly connected with researchers and not sitting in that room like you were saying, and coming up with oppressive policies on your own. And you said about this, and I'll just quote you now, this is a brief quote. It gave me a beautiful look into the day-to-day life of our UX researchers. So what is it that you remember noticing from that day-to-day, that insight perhaps or that thing you observed that you were then able to bring back into the way in which you were developing the function?
A'verria Martin:
I mean, that role was just a blessing. It was probably the hardest 18 months of my life,
Brendan Jarvis:
Busy job, both two jobs.
A'verria Martin:
It very much was two jobs because the way of working from an operational perspective and the way of working from a UX research manager perspective and managing a team, it's just very, very different even when you think about just tasks, activities like mental models. But it did give me a really unique view to some of the challenges that our UX researchers face when they're working with engineering, product management, design, product content, content design, et cetera. And really how do we collaborate, how do we track work, customer engagement and recruitment with even greater highlighted for me as being such a challenge and barrier that we face as an organization. And so I think by being in that role, I was able to see the pace that UX research needed to move at the level of insights and information that our stakeholders needed, the level of collaboration that is warranted every day. And so I think being able to bring those back into operations and figure out how we do that better. I mean, again, it was just really a gift that was given to me. I think it just makes me better even in my role today, is being able to have that perspective of what it's like to actually manage research at ServiceNow.
Brendan Jarvis:
And your role has changed, I believe it was around a year ago now, that you took on the role of chief of staff for the vp. And I want to talk to you about that in some depth. Actually, something you were saying there about your insight into research and you were talking about researchers' relationships with cross-functional peers like engineering and I suppose associated with that as product as well. And something that I feel being a researcher and speaking with other researchers that's fairly universal is this desire of ours to have some impact with all the work that we are doing. And it's very much our role is very much reliant on our ability to influence others. We don't really have any direct levers that I've identified anyway that we can pull in order to get an insight into a product. It's all done through communication, whether it's directly or asynchronously in terms of the outcomes of our work. And you were asked a few months back about where you'd like to have impact in your new role as chief of staff. And you said, and I'll quote you now, I really would love to make some impact in the area of how we do planning across the product cycle in a way that brings research and design in early. I think we often still have a very product management, engineering driven product lifecycle. So what do you suspect that would need to change both within and also external to the research organization for that to happen?
A'verria Martin:
Oh, I mean that's lovely. I am like, oh, what did I say?
Brendan Jarvis:
Hopefully not too controversial.
A'verria Martin:
And I mean I love that because that's an effort that we're actually really involved in right now. Actually I met yesterday with somebody on our product operations team about this subject, which is how do we create more time for discovery as well? I think product management is often very focused on the current release and they don't have the time or the resources really to be thinking multiple releases ahead, where often you see research what two, three releases ahead. And so how do we join each other there in a product team that has the bandwidth and the space to actually think in a more generative way? And so this is a big hairy problem. I love that I wanted to tackle it, but that was maybe a baby bit naive in that this is not something that's solved easily. So what we're trying to accomplish right now is kind of piloting a shift left in the PD L C and the product development lifecycle to see even from a resourcing perspective, how do we create more space where research design, product management can work multiple releases ahead to really identify a total addressable market?
What are the personas, their needs, their requirements, et cetera. So I think this is even from a resourcing and capacity perspective, I think that's where the problem gets hardest to solve when you have everybody kind of running at the upcoming release. I think we're going to get there. The conversation yesterday was really about how do you measure the impact of shifting left, which is so interesting because a lot of lagging indicators, I can tell you in two to three releases if it worked right, we're going to see maybe increased N P SS or increased CSAT or increased use a or more adoption of new products. So these are all great, but what can we measure now? Is it engineering stories? Is it less usability issues? How can we measure the impact of shifting left quickly? So these are all problems we're trying to solve, but I can tell you it's something that's top of mind and we are actually working on it. It's a tougher problem than maybe I thought it was even six months ago. I don't know if I'm answering the question.
Brendan Jarvis:
Yeah, it is a thorny problem and we all have read or listened to talks or whatever it may be of how we in a perfect world would all be working together and the types of cadences that research and engineering and product would be engaged in. And it sounds wonderful, but you are actually in the belly of the beast. This is the real world where you've got different organizations with perhaps different priorities and different incentives at play. But if we bring this back down to your ability to build relationships across functions, well, what is the particular approach that you take to that? I mean, you have an extensive history in psychology and in therapy. You're also a researcher, so you've got a keen understanding of human behavior. How do you open up these conversations and continue to have them about such difficult things?
A'verria Martin:
I thoroughly believe that your ability to influence is only as good as the relationship you have with people. So I think at the heart, and I've said this in previous podcasts before, is really understanding what drives the different disciplines, your different stakeholders, what do they value? What is going to help them in their career? What do they need to do to be successful? I think really understanding that and then also understanding the whole person. I feel really blessed that I feel like the relationships that I have with stakeholders are deeper than just, I don't know, whatever project or initiative we're working on, who is this person? What do they value both personally and professionally? How can we get there together and really, really starting there If they're being assessed on this current release and they need to validate this thing, get it out the door, but you're like, but what are we doing about this?
How do we balance that out? Okay, so this is what you care about, right? This very moment. Okay, let's figure out how we can address that, but let's also consider in a three month, six month plan how we can take a step back and maybe address this thing as well. So I think we often get really caught up as humans in pushing our own agenda. And then what we do is we just become very conflictual and just tied up in that. So I think really seeing the best in people, figuring out how we can all win in this and then really trying to, I don't know, just see the whole person. We're more than we are at work, and I think sometimes we just get so caught up in work, Brendan and oh my gosh, he's the uptight against this deadline. And it's like, well, why? What's going on for him? What pressures is he experiencing? Is it internal? Is it professional? Is it personal? What could I do to make that better? Because if I could make that better for you, then you're more likely to hear what I'm trying to say as well. So I think there needs to be just a little bit more of that in our professional lives.
Brendan Jarvis:
A hundred percent agree with you. And perhaps I'm about to ask you to pull back the curtain a little bit on your own process or methods here as it relates to what you've just been describing, just how intentional, I mean obviously it's intentional, so intentional is not the right word, but just how methodical are you at considering what's going on for other people? Is this a case of when you've got a big decision that's at stake or you need to get someone to help them to see your point of view? Do you sit down with your notebook or with a Mero board or something and sort of map this out, or is this something more that's more intuitive and that you've kind of tuned over time as you've worked with more and more people?
A'verria Martin:
I mean, it's probably more intuitive. I mean, I definitely tried to start building relationships from our first interaction. One thing that I know about myself is coming from academics, it's very, very hierarchical. And so it was very much like you speak when you're spoken to. And I haven't had to break down some of the trauma that I experienced in academics, even in my current role where I would say 25 to 30% of my week is really managing up. It's talking to vp SS V P, GMs, et cetera. And I found that sometimes it was hard for me to find my voice. I intentionally, when I meet somebody for the first time is I want to have a little bit of chitchat with them. Who are they? Where do they live? Where did they go on their last vacation? What do they like to do outside of work? From my initial engagement, I'm really trying to understand who that person is as a person because it actually makes it easier for me to interact with them. I no longer see them as the S V P of such and such that I should be terrified of. I see them as Joe who lives in Texas and has two kids and loves to travel to wherever. And so I think for me, it starts breaking down barriers right away. And I think when you can have casual conversation with people, you can also have hard conversations with people.
Brendan Jarvis:
You mentioned the fictitious, I'm assuming fictitious Joe, the S V P. Have you been surprised at the way in which people who are further up the hierarchy, if you like, how they've responded to that very curious and almost very human way of interacting with them? Is this something that they're not accustomed to, they just don't get because people do have that sort of fear of God, if you like, of their position within the organization?
A'verria Martin:
I mean, some approach it better than others. Every once in a while you hit a wall and you're like, okay, cool. Well, let's just tell why we're here.
Brendan Jarvis:
Let's just get down to business.
A'verria Martin:
But I think most of the time people are willing to engage. I mean, you don't want to hang out 15 minutes of a meeting there, but I think people like to be seen, and I think that people are pretty open to other people who are just curious and willing to engage with them. And so you definitely don't want it to get in the way of getting business done, but I think for the most part, 95% of the time it's really well received.
Brendan Jarvis:
No, I heard you about six months ago talk about what we are verging on here, which is your role as chief of staff to the vp. You are engaging with the vp, but you're also engaging with other senior leaders in that same or higher position across the organization. And one of the room, the areas or your professional practice that you saw room for growth in was what you had called executive presence, and that is that comfort, that ability to interact with those very, very senior leaders. And this was something back six months ago you were working to develop more. So I was curious, how has that development of executive presence been going? What have you tried and succeeded at or perhaps failed at? How have you been fine tuning this and really getting your feet under the desk of this new and very critical role in this function?
A'verria Martin:
Yeah, I mean, well, I've been very intentional and leaning into it. I hired a professional coach to work with and really thinking through how to grow my executive presence, how to increase my sphere of influence, but really taking a step back as I was just saying and figuring out why was it difficult at times for myself to put myself out there and to be seen and to be vulnerable and really kind of breaking that down and figuring out how better to engage, really trusting that I do have a point of view and actually the worst thing that I could do is not share my point of view. Essentially that's why I'm here, is to help the organization to grow and expand. And so sometimes by being quiet, we're doing a disservice to everyone. And that's something that I'm telling my team all the time too. We want you to speak up, we want to hear from you because ideas that are unseen, maybe missed opportunities. I've been spending a lot more time journaling and really, I mean if I'm being perfectly honest, doing a lot of mantra repetition about having limitless potential speaking with self-assurance and competence and really trusting process to unfold. So really been thinking about this subject a lot, reflecting and doing the work that I think needs to be done to really level up.
Brendan Jarvis:
You mentioned a little earlier on about the trauma that you experienced in academics and listening to you talk about the role of your coach and the reflection that you've been doing through your journaling and disservice that you've perhaps felt that you've done in the past to yourself and the organization by not stepping into that presence. Is this something that source of trauma, is this something that you would be comfortable discussing and sharing with people, bearing in mind that there are probably people, possibly other women in positions of leadership that have similar experiences and would stand to gain something from hearing just where you've got to with your own journey of developing yourself on this?
A'verria Martin:
Absolutely.
Brendan Jarvis:
So what was the nature of that trauma? And again, I'm not a therapist, so like I said to you before we hit record, if I'm asking you something you're not comfortable with, then please tell me what did you experience?
A'verria Martin:
There's all different levels of trauma. I mean, my definition of trauma here is really about something that limits your future self, right? An experience or a set of experiences that have caused some sort of attachment injury or emotional damage that at some point in time percolates up to the surface and prevents you from doing X, Y, Z. It might be that best self. For me, I think academics was very, it was a slow and steady burn, and I think that there's some things that are below the surface that you don't even realize at the time. So I was in academics for 15 years. I had just about every role you can imagine, academics started as a student, then was a research associate and then study coordinator, and then got into my directorship. And one thing that I always saw in academics is a very different approach to male versus female colleagues.
I felt like a lot of the male voice was often the loudest in the room. Female voice sometimes was just kind of trying to get attention. It felt like having a family was something that you could do, but you really need to focus on your work, make sure that we kind of keep the family to the side, don't let it impact your work. So just not a real emphasis on that work, work-life balance and really how to be a whole person. I saw people consistently just academics is interesting because it is the definition of hustling for your worth all the time. Excuse me,
Brendan Jarvis:
That's the dirty truth.
A'verria Martin:
I mean, it is publisher perish. You're sending papers in and people are telling you how awful they are. And so it's just constant rejection. Your grants only last three to five years, and so no funding, no grant, no job, and god forbid you study the things you're interested in. It's really about studying whatever is fundable by whoever's the funding agency at the time. And so it's just a lot of it kind of felt like constant gas gaslighting where it's like, oh my gosh, it's just a lot of people pleasing and making sure that you're making all of these external audiences happy at all times with little to no feedback or encouragement. Going back to the hierarchical piece that it also felt like wherever you were in your career trajectory was when you actually got to really speak up in meetings. So in my final role as a staff director, and because I wasn't a faculty director, I was definitely lower on the totem pole, and so I learned a lot of behaviors around when to speak hold, because if you spoke too early, somebody would talk over you. It would just be like it's not your turn kind of situation. And so you really learn a lot of self-monitoring and making sure you're coming in at the right time only saying whatever your piece was moving back out. And so I found myself doing that even now, and there's nothing in my current role that would indicate that that was, it's not hierarchical, it doesn't feel like that, but you really kind of learn to sit back, listen, try to read the room, make sure that you're not stepping on any toes, sounds
Brendan Jarvis:
Very texting.
A'verria Martin:
It was just a lot of emotional regulation at any given time and making sure that you are perceived in a very specific way as somebody who is pretty well tattooed at this point in my life, wearing long sleeves to work, really watching my vocabulary, and I've also got some sailor tendencies, and so it was just a lot of self-monitoring, which takes a lot of bandwidth. And so I was finding some of those tendencies popping back up and taking a lot of bandwidth where all of a sudden you're in a meeting and you realize that you haven't been completely present because you're thinking about the thing that you might want to say, but is a time to say those types of things popping up. And so really thinking about where did that tendency come from? Is it still serving me now?
Brendan Jarvis:
Good question.
A'verria Martin:
And if not, how do we get over it and move forward?
Brendan Jarvis:
So what decision or commitment or promise or action have you taken now that you have realized that this is something that's not serving you? How have you started to change as a result?
A'verria Martin:
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm putting myself out there more than I was previously doing my best to really stay engaged at any minute and stay curious. I think some of the previous tendencies was don't speak until you have something really good to say. You're trying to contrive this good thing that you're going to say
Brendan Jarvis:
The perfect interview question. Yeah, yeah,
A'verria Martin:
Right. Instead of really being present and being like, oh, that's really interesting. I don't understand. Can you tell me about this thing? Which is how you would naturally approach conversation. It was almost becoming unnatural. So really just staying engaged and present in the moment and not feeling like any question is stupid. If I need clarity, if I want to know more, digging in, giving my opinions, knowing that folks aren't, everybody wants the best for you, people aren't really there to judge you, and they're not going back to their next meeting and being like, oh my God, can you believe she said that in that meeting? And so really giving my space to change the way I was thinking about those situations and really just show up and be there.
Brendan Jarvis:
What you were saying about people aren't going back and talking to each other about, oh my God, did you hear what she said in that meeting? It's reminding me of, I had a leadership coach, a personal coach, actually maybe it's over a decade now. And we were met at this coffee shop, a cafe here in Auckland, and she asked me to stand on the chair outside where we were sitting. And such a fascinating exercise. It's always sat with me. Of course, my initial reaction was like, I'm not standing up on this chair in front of all these other people. What are they going to think about me? They'll think I'm mad. And then I ended up doing it and she was trying to reinforce to me the fact that everyone else is so in their own heads focused on their own shit that they're not actually that concerned about what you've said or what you are standing on or what you are wearing. A lot of that we've just internalized from whatever experience
A'verria Martin:
That is absolutely true. That's kind of the realization is to let yourself be seen. And we all say dumb things sometimes, but people aren't, they're not keeping a catalog of it. They're not dinging you for it. People do want to hear what you have to say and they want you to be included in conversations. And I think just putting yourself out there and letting yourself be seen is the most important piece. So I've definitely been trying to do more of that and keep that negative self chatter down.
Brendan Jarvis:
Sounds really healthy. I want to talk to you about your role with the vp, the relationship that you've got with the VP UX research. And you've said about this relationship, and I'll quote you again now, you've said in many ways you're adding capacity and velocity to what the VP would be able to do as a single person. So that's you reflecting on the role of chief of staff. So how did you work out with the VP where they needed capacity and velocity? Was this something that was super obvious to both of you or was it sort of a more engaged dialogue that you needed to have to arrive at just how you were going to work together?
A'verria Martin:
So I feel like it's maybe a little bit of both because I feel like our relationship is just kind of organically grown over time and it's kind of an ongoing conversation too. So our relationship started when he joined ServiceNow a year ago, and I was named his chief of staff. And so I think in the beginning it was really getting to know each other, getting to know how each each person works. I think that we're both similar and different enough that we think similarly, but differently enough that we can really challenge each other. And that's where I think we can expand. What do they say? The sum is greater than the parts where I think we can really grow our thinking In his first, let's say six to eight months at ServiceNow, I think he was really very much on a roadshow of making sure he was meeting everyone and understanding the problems and all of those things over the last four, five months, we're really trying to get even more deliberate on what we're working on because so many things have bloomed to the surface.
We can't focus on all of them. And so really figuring out what we want to prioritize, what he owns, what I own, and what we own together. So in a lot of situations, he may be the one making the relationships, and I may be the one sustaining the relationships where it's like, okay, we've identified that this is a very important initiative, this is a very important relationship, so if you could keep this ongoing with this person or with their staff and make sure that we're moving that forward. Or it may be something where it's like, okay, I'm actually just going to give this to you and you just run with it and just keep me up to date. So I think we're constantly having check-ins and sometimes we're having tough talks about, okay, maybe we've taken on too much at this point. Let's figure out what can we put on the back burner.
We don't want to lose the trust of people, but we'd also lose the trust by saying that we can do things that maybe we can't do in 2023. And that's where we're really going back to what are our goals? What are our OKRs? How does this ladder up to that? Are those still our number one priority? If so, it has, we have to focus on those things. And then this maybe we'll get to in 2024. So I think it's kind of an ongoing dialogue too of how we're focused on all of the things that we could be focused on organizationally
Brendan Jarvis:
And your role and relationship that you've got. It's one where at least I get the sense that you have permission to have those hard conversations. It's almost the point of the role is to have someone there that can act as a sounding board in part for the vision or the strategy or whatever it is, and co-develop that. But there's also hard conversations, like you said, that happen. How do you navigate those together? How do you handle those situations when you're not immediately on the same page? And I want the real story here without of course breaching any confidentiality, but how do you actually get around those tricky situations where you're not seeing things the same way?
A'verria Martin:
I think one thing that we have, and I don't know if this is true of all chief of staff VP relationships, is I feel like we have really good communication. I feel like we're both really good communicators and I don't think we sugarcoat things for each other. I think we're both really honest, concise communicators too, where it's like, I don't know if that's the best idea.
Brendan Jarvis:
Tell me about that.
A'verria Martin:
I don't know if that's what we want to pursue. And I think we just keep those conversations going. And sometimes we talk those things to death not too long ago on and was in town, and I think we had a three or four hour meeting around prioritization and making sure we're focusing on the wrong thing, right thing, and have we spun up too many relationships and are we going to be able to do all of these things? And then the question is like, okay, well now how do we move forward?
Brendan Jarvis:
That prioritization? That's really interesting. I've heard you talk about something that actually you first spoke about when you were building the research ops function, and it's a saying that I believe is quite almost a mantra of yours, which is you can do anything, but not everything
A'verria Martin:
It's, anyway, it's on my vision board,
Brendan Jarvis:
Right? Yeah. So this seems to be quite central to the way in which you've managed to manage all the things that you're managing and looking at your career and your role, it seems like you are definitely on the ascent, but you're also laddering different layers of responsibility on top of one another. It's actually quite like I was thinking about your role. I'm thinking, gosh, I really don't understand how she does it all. So how do you go about identifying some things that you should be doing, or perhaps it's the other way around? How do you go about identifying some things that you shouldn't be doing?
A'verria Martin:
I think we've been very lucky here this year that we've gotten much clearer on prioritization OKRs, and so I try to think about everything we're doing in the way that it is, how does it ladder up to the things that we said we were going to do? We have three top OKRs, so how does the work that we're doing, how is it addressing those things, how it is addressing those goals? I'm flexible enough that there's times that other priorities are going to come up. We're seeing one right now in the generative AI space where I think we're going to be leaders in this space, but some other things have really needed to fall off. And so really that conversation is about, okay, we said we were going to do this thing. If we're stacking this thing and this thing against each other, is it okay if this falls off?
And what is the narrative? If this does fall off, is it something we're coming back to? Is it something we need to tie a bow on? What are we doing with this priority that's no longer a priority? So I mean, think for me, I'm just consistently thinking about what are the things that we promised this year? Is it helping get us closer to that goal? If it's something that's not, what happens to these goals? Is it okay for something to drop? What is the message? Who do we need to tell? I think for me, it's just continuing to come back to whatever those core OKRs goals. Smart people have all different things depending on the organization, but I think being very, very clear on what you want to accomplish in X time period and thinking about, because there's so many things we do every day. I probably, I'm in meetings a good 30 hours a week and people are constantly bringing things to me. So really thinking about are these meetings, are these relationships, are they helping us further these goals or are they getting us further away from that?
Brendan Jarvis:
It sounds like it would be very easy to get distracted.
A'verria Martin:
Absolutely. And it's not. There's so many opportunities and there's so many relationships and things that we could be doing, which are absolutely incredible. And that doesn't mean it can't go into a parking lot to consider later.
Brendan Jarvis:
I like that. And it's kind of touching on something that you mentioned just a few seconds ago, which of these goals might we need to drop or something to that effect, which almost sounds like sometimes you have to be the bearer of bad news or what could be perceived as bad news. It sounds like maybe I'm touching on something here that's not a role that people generally like to play, right? Most of us, the generalizing here, most of us want to please other people. So for example, if you do have to drop some goals that might impact something that's quite important to someone in your team, your wider team, what does that look like? How do you have those difficult conversations?
A'verria Martin:
I mean, I think it's just really approaching it from an honest place. This is what we essentially promised. This is where we were trying to get, these other things have come into play. They're a priority for the business. They are likely a priority for that person in some way as well, if they're laddering up that high. And then figuring out what's the plan for the deliverable for the O K R for whatever we had promised previously. So is we may not be able to take it all the way over the finish line, but we can get X, Y, z done. We actually need to extend the timeline in order to get it done. We still think it's really important, but it may be that we need to finish it in Q one of 2024 in order to get it to where we were hoping to get it.
Is it a rescope? Either we deliver at a lesser fidelity or is it still a priority and is it the same priority? Does it look exactly the same as the day that we wrote it down or is there somewhere where we can pivot, where we can get creative? There's times that we figure out this better than anybody from a resourcing perspective. Is it something where we can lean on somebody else to help us do that, whether it be through vendor support, contractor, contingent worker, is there somewhere else that we can invest where we can get this over the line? It may be a quarter later, but let's consider what are our alternate resources for getting the work done? So I think just being honest, one thing team knows this really well. Communication to me, just people need to know where you're at with things, otherwise people don't think things are happening. So if something is changing, you got to let people know. If you can't make a deadline, you got to let people know. And I think people are really understanding, but you need to tell them. And then I think you can think of creative solutions for still getting the job done.
Brendan Jarvis:
I'm hearing a couple of things. One is about being honest. It's almost as if it's better just to pull that bandaid off quickly. It's like things have changed.
A'verria Martin:
Very kind.
Brendan Jarvis:
There's also something that I was wondering around the options that you give people, is this something where you often will think through what those options are? So you are constraining those decisions within a set that's workable, but still giving people, I suppose, the ability to exercise some free will within that choice set? Or are you more of the type of person that will give people, different, people are different of course in terms of the responsibility you can give them, but will you generally defer to them to make the best decision based on what it is that you've communicated to them about the high level that has changed?
A'verria Martin:
Oh, that's an interesting one. I think I am very much a let's figure, let's collaborate and figure out what a potential solution is. And I think what's really nice is from where I am in the organization, I do have a beautiful view of where are we with operational spending, where can we pull other levers? Where could we bring in people from across different teams? And so I think even in just having a conversation with people, I can think about, Hey, we could try this or we could try that, or maybe we could do this. What do you think about this idea? And so I think when you come together, I like to really co-create different ideas and then really look to them for now, what do we want to do
Brendan Jarvis:
Now? A I'm just mindful of time. I'm going to bring the show down to a close for us now. And I have one final question for you. All right. Oh boy. Hopefully we're all good. We're all good. We'll be fine. Your career is one of not allowing yourself to be limited. And this is something that you've spoken about before and I know that you're very passionate about and yet you want other people to realize as well. So what message or story do you want to share with the people listening today about what they might be telling themselves that might not be serving them? Well,
A'verria Martin:
I guess more than anything, I feel like who you are today doesn't need to define who you are tomorrow. And I feel like we can be whoever we want to be if we're willing to make the investment. And that means feeling really uncomfortable a lot of the time. I'm very committed to growth, and that means that I don't get to sit back and be comfortable hardly ever. Like I have been really pushing myself since the day I started ServiceNow, and I have definitely felt incredibly uncomfortable most of the time. But it's because I believe in my potential. I'm interested in always growing and knowing more. And so I think if you're willing to invest and be uncomfortable and consider where are your strengths, where are your potential growth areas and how do you fill those gaps? Is it through training? Is it through mentorship? Is through professional coach? Is it through therapy? Is it through chats with friends? It could be any of those things, but lean in, invest in yourself. Do those things be okay with delayed gratification? Nothing good comes easy. I feel like I'm just showing in all these damn quotes.
Brendan Jarvis:
You're good. It's good. They're flowing. They're just flowing,
A'verria Martin:
Right. But I think it's true. I think things always feel far away in the moment, but as somebody who spent eight years in grad school and postdoc, it went by like that. And I've been done for over 10 years now, and it's like, wow. If somebody would've told me the ways that those things would've paid off, I wouldn't have totally believed them. But I'm so glad I was willing to do the work and just sink into the muck in to really grow as a person.
Brendan Jarvis:
That's such an important point to share with everyone and a great place to wrap this conversation up. A'verria, I've really enjoyed spending this time with you today. Thank you for so generously sharing your stories and insights with me.
A'verria Martin:
Of course. Thanks for having me. Love the conversation.
Brendan Jarvis:
It's been my pleasure. And A'verria, if people want to keep up with you and your contributions to the field, they want to follow along or connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
A'verria Martin:
Definitely my LinkedIn is the best place to do that, and I am unfortunately very slow at this point in responding. So sorry, everyone, thank you for those who have reached out. I try to be as active as I can be, but there's times that I just can't. But definitely follow me there. I post anything like podcasts, publications, et cetera.
Brendan Jarvis:
Wonderful. Thanks A'verria. And to everyone who's tuned in, it's been great having you here as well. Everything we've covered will be in the show notes, including where you can find A'verria in all of the things that we've spoken about.
If you've enjoyed the show and you want to hear more great conversations like this with world-class leaders in UX research, product management and design, don't forget to leave a review, subscribe as well so that the podcast turns up every two weeks and tell someone else about the show if you think they would get value from these conversations at depth.
If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn, just search for Brendan Jarvis, or you can find a link to my profile at the bottom of the show notes or head on over to thespaceinbetween.co.nz. That's thespaceinbetween.co.nz. And until next time, keep being brave.

A’verria Martin

Building Bridges, ReOps and Presence

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Who is A’verria Martin, PhD?

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